Episode 101: Pelvic Floor & Body Image With Jenn Lormand
Episode 101: Pelvic Floor & Body Image With Jenn Lormand
In this episode we sit down with....Jenn Lormand.
Jenn Lormand, Exercise Physiologist, is cofounder of Tighten Your Tinkler. Jenn Lormand and Christina Walsh (Physical Therapist) have been helping moms heal and feel better in their bodies again for a combined 36 years. The ladies who work with them call them "The Dream Team." They are honored to be trusted by so many women, and want all women to have the tools they need to feel better in their body again!
In this conversation we talk about:
Jenn's personal body image story- the effect of her environments and the restrictive place around food it led to
Her healing journey from traumatic birth deliveries and pelvic organ prolapse diagnosis
Signs of pelvic floor dysfunction
Connection between eating disorders, self image, and pelvic floor health
How to implement their simple kegel routine into your life
Connect with our guest...
Resources we mention in this episode…
5-minute Quiz (helps quickly connect the dots about what's going on in your body)
Ready to heal your relationship with food + body?
Book your FREE Body Trust Breakthrough Consult
Grab your FREE Intuitive Eating Workshop
Get weekly email support from me to help you heal your relationship with food + body image
TRANSCRIPTION
Episode 101: Pelvic Floor & Body Image With Jenn Lormand
Katelyn:
Jenn Lormand, welcome to the show. So glad that you are here today. And I am so stoked to have this conversation with you. Thank you.
Jenn:
Thank you so much for having me, Katelyn.
Katelyn:
Let's just dive in. Because there's so much to talk about. And I'm dying to hear your personal truth and your body image stories. So the first question that we ask everyone on the show, is your first body awareness moment. So what did that look like? For you that moment where you realized, I'm in a body? Apparently, this means something in the world that I'm living in? What did that moment look like? And also, how did that shape your relationship with your body, your relationship with food, your life, all the things moving forward?
Jenn:
Yeah, I mean, two moments really come to mind. One is when I was much younger, probably three or four, and I had started dance classes. And, um, that feeling of learning choreography, and being coordinated enough to perform that. And, you know, noticing how I could control my body with movement. And I would say, that's where my love and all of movement in regards to the human body really started. I liked that feeling of knowing that I had control of that and feeling centered, you know, and really practicing more when I didn't have that centered feeling. And I would say the second body conscious moment that I had was really more in middle school. I continued to dance over that time, but I also began playing sports. And I noticed that I was broader than the other girls and would develop, you know, I was more muscular than a lot of the girls who were thinner. That was probably the point, I don't think I'm different than most girls were I started noticing that I was different. You know that my body looked different than some of the girls in my friend group. Now, in terms of food, I always had a healthy appetite. Because I was in so many extracurricular activities where I was burning a lot of energy. And I am blessed. I did not have a mother who shamed me for my appetite. I always stopped eating when I was full. And I really, I would say, up until high school, really just viewed food as fuel. Obviously, I have grown up and lived in New Orleans my entire life. So food is also you know, what brings family together. You know, my mom, definitely. And my grandmother loved on me with some food, some really good food, some gumbo, chicken, fricassee, jambalaya, all the things that we really treasure and love down here, but I never really ate those to access per se. So I guess that would be my first couple of memories in regards to body image. And that all began to shift for me in high school, getting my cycle, noticing a lot of weight fluctuations, week to week. You know, you end up sitting more, I think just teenagers in general, you sleep more. And so you start to notice and you're surrounded by other females to have poor body image. And that definitely starts to, I would say, rub off on you to where you internalize and you know, I would look at my body and think as if I was still more muscular and thicker than some of the other girls. I need to lose weight. You know, I'm too thick, I want to be a size zero and a two, which I was a size two. And I wanted to be a size zero, which, you know, now at 44 years old, I look back at that, and you have to just laugh. But um, yeah, so that's kind of when my relationship with both my body and my food really changed for me. And at that point in time, you know, the low fat diets, you know, the snack wells, cookies, and all of that were in vogue, and I did all of it.
Katelyn:
So interesting, I want to pause you for a moment if it's okay in your story, because there are some really interesting dots that I am just witnessing and connecting on my end that I am curious about, I'd love to share if it's okay with you, for sure. So what's so fascinating to me is at the beginning of your story, you're acknowledging how you're almost getting that fixed, you're getting that high off of being able to control something. And yeah, that's so normal for most people in a culture where we can't control so many things. And so being able to just put the pieces together at such an early age, have this one mechanism of your life where you can control something. So just having that in your toolkit, let's call it at a really young age. And coming into middle school, what's so incredible about your story, Jenn, is you're acknowledging the environment where you're witnessing for yourself, there really wasn't, it doesn't sound like a lot of negative body image talk or a lot of negative talk around food, it doesn't sound like diet culture was really rampant in your household, as well as the variety that you are giving yourself permission to eat around foods. So you have the two, the two pieces of the puzzle that are really crucial for healthy body image environment. And also adequate nutrition in terms of variety, abundance, consistency, all of these things. So it makes sense that you're, you're not really feeling that pain or that need to fix your body. At the same time, just being aware that your body is different from your perspective from other people. And then what I think is interesting is getting into high school. And I think this is something that so many of us can relate to whether it is middle school, or high school, but just kind of swimming in the waters of diet culture for the first time. And where comparison is so strong, and environment, once again, that really shaping your relationship with yourself. And what's so interesting about environments in general, but in your story, in particular is the environment that you were in in middle school, and how it fostered just that nourishing, calming, appreciative relationship with your body, versus the competitive environment that you were in in high school, and how that kind of led you down this restrictive place around food it sounds like with some of the diet foods that you mentioned and whatnot. So am I hearing you accurately? Does that reflection feel true for you?
Jenn:
It does.
Katelyn:
So what's what's next in your story? What did you notice from starting to restrict food in that way and kind of move more into diet culture in terms of what you were eating and how you were trying to manipulate your body?
Jenn:
I mean, it really was, you know, in high school, fitting in is everything. And I had also made the dance team for our brother school. I went to an all girls school so I danced at the Boys High School every single day after school for practice. And you know, with that comes new pressures for body image, you're in a workout where you're, you know, you're in front of guys and you're performing so you want to look as good or if not better than, you know, the other girls that you're there with. And so there was definitely a consistent pressure to look the part. So, you know, we all kind of did all of the diets together. You know, we had salad bar and potato bar. And that's pretty much what I ate for lunch every day, my mom, you know, always cooked healthy, I can't say that there was a ton of junk food in my house. So, you know, from that perspective, it was pretty easy to trim down some, and to stay athletic and lean. And, um, you know, look the part. Does that answer your question?
Katelyn:
Yeah. Well, how were you able to keep it up? Was there a backlash, I was noticing that you were becoming obsessive around food.
Jenn:
Yeah, at that point in time, I wasn't, it really wasn't until I got into the exercise and fitness industry at 18 years old. You know, my first year of college, back in 1995, that's when I got my first certification and began teaching Group X classes. And working with some women, in a one on one capacity that I realized, all of my colleagues were quite obsessed with food and whatnot. And I mean, sure, I definitely dipped my toe in the water several times of that, but, you know, I was, I was pretty blessed with just good, healthy habits that I wouldn't say that I ever considered having an issue with that. Myself, but I was very, very aware of it. And I became more aware of how prevalent it was with all of the, you know, young women that I began working with who were obsessive about weight loss, and you know, when to eat and what to eat and when to work out. And, you know, going to the, into the sauna at the health club, I worked out, you know, tada with, like, you know, the suits, the sweat suits that like boxers would wear to like, sweat out three pounds, and just a lot of crazy stuff that I can't say that I was exposed to previously.
Katelyn:
Yeah. How would you describe your relationship with your body at that time, then because it sounds like it's, it's this awareness of something that could possibly be more detrimental, but at the same time, it's not as peaceful as it was before you kind of got into the dieting environment. So you're kind of in that middle ground, it sounds like so how would you kind of look back and describe your personal relationship with your body image?
Jenn:
I would say that it was good, probably borderline on unhealthy at times, you know, I was very lean, and obviously, certain times of the month. I mean, I was pretty shredded, I had a six pack. And you could see a lot of muscle definition. And, you know, during certain times of the month, I wouldn't be as lean. And so I might exercise a little more, I might cut, you know, calories a little more to really try to maintain that lean look. And that definitely wasn't healthy. I think I'm just comparing myself to some of the other girls who I know, were throwing up in the bathroom and taking laxatives and, you know, essentially starving themselves and I definitely knew that that wasn't good.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's so interesting. And I can certainly understand that where it's feeling again, like that comparison almost around. I'm not struggling as much as these people. So I'm doing okay, but also, I want to be better than I am right now. Yeah, I get it. It's that. It's that underlying perfectionism that it's so common for so many of us, especially in this community as well too, and tied with control and that desire for controlling something. It's just like, it's like a perfect storm, a perfect equation so well, and I definitely think it's also part of the journey of, you know, finding out who you are, I mean, in your late teens and 20s. It's such an exploratory time of trying different things on for size and trying to figure out what resonates and having your own identity that's separate from your parents and friends and you know you want to fit in, but you want to be different and stand out and be unique and find your gifts, and it's a lot of a lot of pressure.It is, it's a lot of pressure. And what I think is so interesting is all of that is true. And why is it always about bodies for so many of us, you know, just by way of the culture that we're living in, because of course, that's a part of the developmental journey growing up, forming your identity, separating from parents, forming your own beliefs and everything. And so many of us as women, really lean on our bodies to facilitate that separate identity in some capacity, when there are so many other avenues. And it's not to say that that's, that can't be true, it can be both. And it's not always either, or, but do you know what I mean, there's so many, there's so many of so many stories, where we lean into our bodies to separate us and to identify us differently?
Jenn:
Well, I would definitely agree. I mean, it's what we come into this world possessing as our only possession, right? Yes. And so for women, you know, one of the things that I've learned through working with the women that we work with is, security means everything to women. And when there is that loss of sense of security, whether that's, you know, the way you look, or like with the women that we work with losing control of certain body functions, that's scary, it is terrifying. And it affects us as women to the core of our being and I, I love this conversation. You know, as holistic practitioners, it's really just so important for women to understand that. You know, it is the physical, the emotional, and the spiritual, we are whole, you know, we are whole bodies, and not just our body, but the spirit that lives inside of it. And our thoughts and beliefs matter. So much, and we end up manifesting so much of that in our bodies.
Katelyn:
Oh, I love that you said that Jenn and I, I fully support that. I believe that myself too. How did you even get to that place in your life where you really started to embody this belief for yourself?
Jenn:
Oh, Lord, how long do we have? Well, it's through a series of mishaps just like I think, you know, most people I too am fascinated with every quote unquote, body has a story. And really seeking out and understanding the story of my body's journey through life with a little bit of a different lens from a, you know, biomechanical as well as emotional. You know, from a very young age, I suffered with asthma, and I danced. And so there, I placed a lot of physical strains on my body. And at the same time, during that time, there was a lack of stability in my life. So from an emotional perspective, my parents divorced when I was seven, I'm an only child, it ended up in a battle of every other day custody. So from the time I was seven until 16, I lived out of a suitcase and really didn't have a home, which again, for a child, is that sense of security and stability. I never slept in the same bed two nights in a row. And very much felt that tug and pull between my parents. And so, you know, there was definitely those physical constraints of the constant coughing when I would have an asthma attack, kind of set the stage where I probably was displaying some symptoms of pelvic floor dysfunction from a younger age. And not knowing it, certainly, you know, I started getting UTIs and things in middle school, which is one of those signs as well as some urgency with urination. Um, you know, and all of this is in hindsight, and then you know, the constraints of dancing and overstretching the pelvic floor, you know, having to get into that split, and all of the bouncing and jumping with the weakness there, again, from a physical perspective, set me up for some of the injuries that I had later on after having children. But I really feel that if there were more of an emotional stability in my life at that time, that, you know, maybe those things wouldn't have impacted my physical body as much as they did. And so, you know, I, I'm fascinated, just like you listening to different women's stories, because all the little minutiae matters so much, I think everything goes back to beliefs and thoughts and values, and how that manifests in our bodies in our lives. But, you know, just from a holistic perspective, I'm also fascinated with Chinese medicine, I see a functional med doc and oriental medicine doc. And when I learned after college, about the different chakras of the body, and I started having low back pain in my 20s. Learning that Sacral Chakra was all about stability, right? And, and you know, it, I chuckle about it a little bit, because it seems so obvious now, in hindsight, the pelvis on the woman, it's not just our center of gravity, it is where our womb is, you know, it is part of what we were created for, to give life. And so there's our emotional home, lives in there so much. And I think as women, you know, we collect these experiences throughout our life. And society, especially when you become a mother, or you become an independent woman, making a good living for yourself, we tend to have these expectations that we are supposed to take care of everyone else. Put our needs last on the list. And so what ends up happening is we shove things down. And I remember, I remember saying that, and having that recognition of Oh, my gosh, I have been shoving things down for years. So it's no accident that at some point, from a physical perspective, my pelvic organs might start falling out of my body, because you can only shove so much stuff down from an energetic perspective, and not have that begin to manifest physically.
Katelyn:
Hmm. Yeah. I want to hear how that happened for you. I mean, did things really start falling out of your body? What was the physical ramification of that?
Jenn:
Yeah, so I had my first two children really close together, 16 months apart, but my first delivery was actually quite a traumatic birth and I ended up having a lot of birth injuries, I had a fourth degree tear and ended up having some what was called hernias of my vagina. I didn't really know what that was, per se, but I got pregnant so quickly with my second that I ended up having something called vulva varicosities, which is essentially like hemorrhoids of your vagina. So very uncomfortable. I then recovered from that. And it wasn't until eight years later that I had my third son at 36 years old. And that is really where, you know, the tissue begins to lose playability. The older we get, there's a lot of shifts in our hormones, and it was just the perfect recipe for postpartum. I did actually, you know, see my bladder coming out of my body and was diagnosed with stage two, pelvic organ prolapse of both my bladder, uterus and rectum.
Katelyn:
Is that genetic? Does anybody in your family have a similar story? Or is this just based on what you were sharing before around the energetic component of really just kind of shoving things down and it manifesting in physical nature? What set you up for this in hindsight?
Jenn:
Yeah, I would say my whole story set me up right, the chronic coughing over the years that chronic downward pressure from a fist A cold perspective. I had really big babies, and I'm five, three and a half on a good day. And just that traumatic delivery, I mean, they used forceps, were not able to get my son out, and ended up being able to get them out with a vacuum. And you know, just in the research alone shows that the use of those tools during delivery causes a lot of damage to the pelvic floor muscles and to the tissue down there. So it was definitely a combination of all of those things that set me up down the road to having, you know, pelvic organ prolapse
Katelyn:
Was this when you were already working as a pelvic floor PT or before?
Jenn:
Yeah, so just to be clear, I am not a pelvic floor PT. I'm an exercise physiologist. My partner is a physical therapist. but yeah, I had been working in the realm of helping women recover from birth. I've since after the birth of my second son actually wrote a book with an eight week protocol in it, I used to teach key goals, I used to practice key goals. And so yeah, I had been working in that capacity since 2005.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. So you were in this world, you were educating others to some degree around how to take care of yourself around some of these issues coming up. But it sounds like this was almost like a next level for you, personally, and professionally as well, too. So what? How did that shift things for you, Jenn? Did you find yourself taking care of yourself in a different way physically, mentally, emotionally? What was the process like for you coming out of that?
Jenn:
I have to be honest, that moment of, you know, the way that I describe it to women that we work with, so that they can better identify Is this me which we do have a quiz on our website, if women are wondering if they have any of this? Yeah, I was terrified. It felt like a lot of downward pressure down there. To the point where I was like, I need to look down there and see what's going on. And when I saw some, something that I didn't know was falling out of my body, you know, going back to that sense of security, I had so many different feelings, running through me for quite, for quite some time. It was terrifying. It felt mortifying, I didn't really know that this could happen. And I went, I immediately made an appointment with my doctor, to whom pretty much told me, this is not that bad. Mine is worse than yours kind of thing. I was asking for a referral to a Euro gynecologist, because I had done some research ahead of time. And she basically wasn't going to give me the referral. And I really had to put up a fuss to get the referral. And I just remember the shame and the guilt, the looks, when I walked to the nurse's desk to get the referral, like I was a pain, you know, like, this isn't a big deal, like suck it up buttercup kind of mentality. And I just remember feeling very isolated. I didn't know how to talk to my husband about this. You know, intimacy was quite painful. I did not have control over bowel and bladder. So that meant urgency, frequency accidents. There was just, there was a lot going on. And obviously I'm also taking care of my two older kids and nursing a newborn during this time. So yeah, it was it was a lot.
Katelyn:
Um, sounds like a lot. What what were people telling you? Were they giving you an estimated recovery time? And what what was the actual recovery period like for you?
Jenn:
Yeah, the OB I actually never saw her again. The information that I got from her was nil, basically, as I stated before, and I find that women are still having that experience eight years later getting blown off Not being checked properly for the stuff, which she did not actually examine me properly. When I got to the euro gynecologist, it was a relief to actually have a name for this, too, you know, he was kind enough to take me into his office, I have a printout Christina. And I've done several videos kind of using the image of my pelvic organs to better understand symptoms and presentation of prolapse.
Katelyn:
Can you give the new again, what did he do? What did he share as the name for this? I know that you mentioned it before, but just so that we're clear in this part of your story?
Jenn:
Yeah. So this is when I was diagnosed with pelvic organ prolapse, which is just the falling of the pelvic organs, okay, into the vaginal cavity. And there are, every single woman's case is a little different, but we do share symptoms. But the presentation can be different for every single woman.
Katelyn:
And does this only happen after childbirth? Or can women experience this before?
Jenn:
Unfortunately, there are women who can experience this before you had asked if this was genetic, we have worked with several women. In fact, two of the women that were part of our research study that was published in the Journal of women's health physical therapy had a condition called Ehlers Danlos, which is a connective tissue disorder. It's a laxity in tissue. So there are several women that we work with that have either been diagnosed with some type of hypermobility, or that particular condition that do begin to show signs of prolapse at an earlier age before childbirth.
Katelyn:
Okay, so let's revisit this because I have a lot of questions around that, yeah, by you sharing this, but I want to go back to your recovery. And finally finding somebody who could be on your team and support you with healing. So what did your personal healing journey look like at this part of your story?
Jenn:
So at this part of my story, in the Euro gynecologist's office, as I'm sitting there, I'm 36 years old, and he tells me, you're going to need a full pelvic floor suspension. This is going to require surgery. When he examined me and asked me to perform a kegel, I was capable of performing a kegel. So he then said, I'm not a good candidate for women's health physical therapy, because I already have a baseline strength there. And that I was going to need surgery. In his next breath. He said, I don't like doing the surgery on women that are as young as you because you will have to have it done again in 15 to 20 years or so. So I left that office and cried my eyeballs out, and then did what I've always done as an only child and I guess survivor of divorce and being pretty self reliant, I made a promise to myself, that I was going to exhaust all other possible measures of being able to heal before coming back and getting surgery. And so that's really what I did. I went on a journey of trying to figure out for me, what was going to help me heal as an exercise physiologist. If you know, reflecting on that conversation with the Euro gynecologist thought it doesn't make sense to me that he's telling me that I have a baseline strengthen my pelvic floor get my pelvic organs are falling out of my body. I had been doing kegels religiously during my pregnancy and postpartum and knew that. So I was frustrated and confused because clearly if kegels were the answer to strengthening my pelvic floor, my pelvic organs would be falling out of my body. And so that led me down a path to look for other educational webinars and seminars related to women's health, that were focused on more functional training for the pelvic floor, as opposed to just doing key goals. And that is when I happened upon a course by health pelvic floor, the pelvic floor Pro. And immediately when I got in there and put this tool on, which is the tool that we utilize in our tighten your Tinkler signature program, I immediately started feeling the difference, I felt a shift in my posture, I felt relief from some of the pressure and back discomfort that I was having. And I, I knew that there was something to this, and purchased a pelvic core pro at that workshop and began playing with it, for myself kind of started my own little 30 day trial of working with this device and figuring out different exercise sequences that I could perform daily, to help alleviate the pee problems, particularly for me. And within 30 days, I was amazed, I was no longer leaking urine when I would cough, sneeze, jump, laugh, I was not running to the restroom 20 plus times a day like I was previously. And intimacy began to become more enjoyable and that painful. So there were a lot of great things that started happening for me in this 30 days, I began implementing this tool with my current client base for the women that it was appropriate for. And honestly, this led to that journey of approaching one of my old professors and asking if he would be willing to be the lead on medical research study to be able to test this protocol that I'd put together. Because basically, we all said the same thing we feel better. And my scientific mind, I can't help but go, we quantify this, what really is better. And so that's what we did over three years, we walked 40 plus women through this protocol and documented their journey. And what we found were was really better than we've ever anticipated. You know, reducing pee leaks, improving intimacy, closing abdominal separations, reducing pressure in the rear side of the bowl, by the rectum. And just an overall improvement in quality of life less back and hip pain and discomfort for many women, and just an increase confidence in their body. Their sense of security in their bodies had been restored.
Katelyn:
Hmm. Yeah, that's what I'm curious about among so many other things in your story. It's really incredible. But how did you notice your relationship with your body changing during this chapter of your life where you really found this type of healing after all of this shame and yeah, feeling out of control.
Jenn:
This beautiful moment, and I remember the moment exactly it has to do with my business partner. Now Christina, we actually found each other while I was in the midst of seeking treatments and therapies to alleviate a lot of the issues that I've been dealing with. She is a physical therapist who specializes in integrative manual therapy, which is hands on work manipulating the soft tissue. And I was on her table after her treating me for many, many months and feeling frustrated defeated. Because I found that I was having setbacks. You know, I wanted to get back to the level of activity that I had been doing pre pregnancy, and just kept having some setbacks and it was on her table. And Christina just has such a kind and empathetic heart and so compassionate. She looked at me and said, Jen, but look what your body is still doing for you. Even in this broken state, your body is still here for you and supporting you on this journey. And when you give it the right nudge, look at how it responds to that. And that was such an incredible tipping point for me, because I went from looking at this as just feeling so broken to becoming open, to truly how capable our body is of healing, when given just the right nudge. And it was it was a very powerful moment with a lot of tears. But that's really when it happened for me.
Katelyn:
Yeah, that's so powerful. How is that? How has that moment showed up in your relationship with yourself? Other than just this one experience? Have you noticed it appearing in different ways?
Jenn:
Yeah, I think it's just such a good reminder that we can do hard things we are capable of so much more than what we can fathom, in our relationships, in our work in our physical beings. You know, oftentimes, we push too hard, too fast. And we automatically put that in the failure column, when it's really about having love and compassion and patience with self, and slowly giving ourselves some grace to heal, and continuing to nudge ourselves in that direction, with just the right amount of compassion and love.
Katelyn:
I think that is so valuable. And I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think that it's something that we can offer to this community in, in so many different capacities, you know, because I really look at body image, it's so interesting. I think most of us in this culture, perceive body images, just our relationship with our physical bodies. And I really look at it more holistically in terms of our relationship with ourselves. And so whether you are in a tough moment of making peace with the size of your body, or the function and ability of your body, or the emotional aspect of your body, exactly what you're offering, Jen, as a testament of your personal journey that can be applied for all of these areas. And really just coming back to that cornerstone of what your body is actually capable of what your soul is actually capable of. Yes, in these difficult moments and really coming to these hard times from that place of abundance, not toxic positive positivity, because I think that can be really debilitating as well. But really, yes, when we feel ourselves getting pulled into the negative space, the lack what we don't have, what we can't do, just moving towards that neutral point of where we're at right now. What is what, what is happening, what is possible, what our bodies are doing for us, and just really leaning in there, which it sounds like you were doing at this part of your journey. And it's really, it's really inspiring.
Jenn:
I appreciate that. Yeah, it it is still an ongoing journey. But yeah, I couldn't agree more with what you just said. I think I lean a lot on my faith. And I think just having that sense of security knowing that someone has your back is a safe space where you can go and lean on others who are empathetic and compassionate. Like this community Here is so incredibly important. And I think for a lot of driven women, like myself, I know for a long time talking about my feelings was very difficult, it made me feel like what I called a Nana, right? I was raised with this attitude of, you know, you can either cry over the milk you spilled on the floor, or clean it up and move on. Because if you just stand there and cry, it still needs to get cleaned up, right. And so that lended to all of the pushing down of the feelings. So you know, this journey has also been for me, finding safe places to to be able to express those emotions that I suppressed and pushed down for so long. And I think that's a part of anyone's healing journey is giving ourselves permission to just feel, I know, oftentimes, some of the women that we work with, who have multiple health conditions and whatnot, and who have gained weight. Oftentimes, we don't appreciate that when we don't have that sense of security in our lives, we often put on the armor, or the increased body fat, as a protective mechanism of self, of keeping those walls up emotionally have really deep and painful wounds that maybe haven't been fully explored. And look, I've had my fair share of therapy. And I'm a firm believer in many different modalities. One, including EMDR, many of the women that we work with, unfortunately 50% or more have been victims of some type of sexual abuse, which further contributes to the shame they feel about that particular part of their bodies, and the lack of security and control they have there. And so you know, that there's so many different things, each woman has their own story, but I just hope that this encourages maybe one woman to reach out and be vulnerable and know that she's not alone. There is always hope.
Katelyn:
Well, yes. 100% Completely agree. And I am right there with you. If one person can feel heard and seen and inspired from this conversation, that is enough, we've done our job. I'm curious about what you just mentioned about the statistic around the victims of sexual assault. 50% is a pretty high number. So yeah, correlating that to this pelvic floor disorder, what do you think is attributed to that? Jen, do you feel like it's more of the physical penetration? Or the emotional repercussions? I'm sure it's a combination of both. But which one?
Jenn:
That's a tough one to answer, Katelyn, because as you know, as a holistic practitioner, I think when certain things happen to us, we hold that emotion in that part of the body. Right, right. And just from a biomechanical, physiological perspective, the way that we are wired, our sympathetic system, our fight or flight system, can be invigorated or turned on by an emotional experience. And we manifest that physically, right. So something that triggers us, like childbirth, which not many people talk about that if you have been a victim of sexual abuse previously, and you go to have a vaginal delivery, that can be a trigger for your previous experience. So it's really hard to say if it's the physical or emotional because they're so intertwined together, physiologically, I mean, that's why when you're watching a scary movie, nothing is actually happening to you. But like, if someone jumps out and stab someone, you have a physiological response to that, because that's how we're wired. Right?
Katelyn:
Right. Yeah, that's, that really resonates with me. I understand that. And I think that this is such a great example of the fact that we do experience our feelings physically in our body. That's why we call them feelings, which is so cool. The first time I heard that I was like, Oh my god. so obvious. That's so odd. I love being able to also simplify things that way too. And so I appreciate when things are just simple in that capacity. Let's go back to kegels before we wrap up our conversation. And perhaps we can get into a few other things depending on time. But this is fascinating. I mean, you've completely debunked kegels through your own research and just studies and protocol and all of these things. So what did you know, back then? What do you know, now, you've kind of walked both talks in terms of their beliefs around this wildly mainstream exercise for women that's been preached for a really long time, but has really ramped up I feel like in the past, I don't know, even like five years, I've heard it more than ever. Maybe it's just because I'm at that age, but what's your take on it?
Jenn:
So I have to say, first and foremost, that you know, you know, better you do better. Right, I wrote a book instructing women how to perform kegels and did them myself for years. And that was appropriate at some points of my journey, when I had lost control over bowel and bladder, right, just like, you know, being penetrated in women's health Pizzi. With electrodes to begin to fire those muscles that have lost connection, right, that have gone dormant, that can be effective when you're in that space of truly losing control over bowel and bladder function, I have to say that first and foremost, but it's really just a great for that from a long term perspective. And being able to regain function in our bodies, being able to get back to our exercise routines, and being able to lunge and jump and squat and do all the things that we do in our bodies. Just like we train all of the other skeletal muscles in our body, our biceps, and our, our legs, our quads, and our hams. We train those functionally with many different movement patterns in the way those muscles work. So we have to do that for our pelvic floors. And Christina and I did a video called your pelvic floor is not a magical unicorn talking about this, because it's hysterical to us that it's treated as this special thing, when it's skeletal muscle mass, just like the rest of our bodies. And we are designed for that to work in conjunction with deep abdominals and back extensors and glutes and hip rotators. And so we need to train them in that way. And Kegel is likened to if someone were to come to me as an exercise physiologist and say, Jen, you know, my job is really physically demanding. And my biceps are really weak, I have to pick this stuff up and put it down all day long. And I really want to strengthen my biceps. And so I say to them, okay, what I want you to do is bend your elbow at 90 degrees, and just squeeze your bicep muscle as tight as you can. You don't just keep doing that, like 20 to 40 times a day. Well, will that make their biceps stronger? Yeah, in that position, but it isn't going to make them any stronger to pick something up and bring it towards them or put it down. And that's really the same as what a kegel is to the pelvic floor, will it create some baseline strength that those muscles have gone dormant? For sure. But it is not effective in getting women back to their exercise routines, or being able to just, you know, function properly in their bodies.
Katelyn:
Are there women that should be doing them as more of a preventative measure versus a reactive protocol? You know, like completely BS.
Jenn:
I don't think it's completely BS. I don't ever you know, look, it's a tool that we've had for quite some time and it does help provide relief for some women. What I will say is, it's effective if you have lost control of bowel and bladder. And you know, you are in Women's Health PT and trying to gain some baseline strength there, then yeah, key goals are gonna be appropriate, but that's for a very short window of time. Okay, once you get those muscles back on board, then it's really important that you train them functionally, and doing movement patterns that are, you know, our pelvic floors do not work by themselves. Our pelvic floor is designed to work in conjunction with deep abdominals, back extensors, hip rotators and glutes. And oftentimes, there's many different things that manifest in pain in the body due to these muscular imbalances. And so, you know, that is why it's important to train these muscles to gather synchronously and subconsciously, I'll add and that's the other problem with a kegel is you have to consciously brace every time you cough, sneeze, laugh, jump, to prevent yourself from leaking urine. That's not a way to live. And that's really not how those muscles were designed to work. They should turn on for you subconsciously, just like, you know, standing, we don't have to think about okay, abs back, you know, legs, let's turn on and work for us. That's not how our bodies were designed to function.
Katelyn:
So what's the alternative? Obviously, this is your work, you have amazing resources that explain what you do. But I'm just sitting here even in my position thinking, Oh, my God, I'm already pressed for time, Kegel 's have been sold to me as something I can do. Like, while I'm sitting at a red light doesn't require me going to a gym, it doesn't require me spending hours a day training my body in this different way or even a few hours a week. What's the alternative? That is, that's reasonable for most women who are pressed for time, or just kind of resistant to trying something that is just going to be more pressure, I guess on their life.
Jenn:
Yeah, more demands. More say this is really what I love. Christina and I are both moms, her kids are a little bit younger than mine. And we run our own business. we created and designed this to fit into women's lives. So truly the entire program that we're talking about, once you learn it, it takes 10 minutes a day to implement the entire routine. And we recommend, you know, doing that for 30 days to start feeling relief and reversing some of the issues and symptoms that women come to us for. But from a maintenance perspective, most of our ladies continue with a two minute a day routine. And I always liken this too, you know, it's something that we have to work on how we frame this in our minds, because we've all bought into proactively that we need to brush our teeth for two minutes a day, if we don't want our teeth to run out of our mouth. This is a good proactive practice for us to do every morning and evening. And really, this is this holds true for our pelvic health and not having to deal with these embarrassing and frustrating issues of leaking pee or even worse, you know, we didn't really even touch on any of the poop stuff that women deal with with urgency and, and leaking, you know, poop or passing gas uncontrollably. All of these things are life altering, embarrassing issues and, you know, two minutes a day you deserve. You know, and by spending that two minutes a day proactively, it can really just pay dividends in the long run.
Katelyn:
Okay, I'm into that. And obviously, you have the research to back it up and the, you know, the lifespan of your business and the results to show that this is actually a proven method that works. Who is this for? What are some common symptoms? And also, what I'm kind of thinking in my mind is I know, especially in this community, we've already alluded to just the busy ambitious, I can do it on my own. I don't really need support. I mean, you're speaking to that crowd right here. So yeah, what do we really need to pay attention to in our bodies, even if it's just kind of the really mild symptoms that are actually the ones that we should be looking at?
Jenn:
Yeah, so it is unfortunate because so many of these things have been normalized. First of all, if you are wearing any of the cute disposable panties that are being marketed to women who are younger and younger, because when you go to the gym and you do jumping jacks or you're lifting something heavy, you leak pee, that is warning sign number one, you should never leak pee during exercise period. Nor during sex, I'll add to that. If you are peeing more than 10 times a day, regardless of how much water you are drinking, that is a sign of pelvic floor dysfunction, which just means that's a weakening of the pelvic floor muscles, they're not firing and supporting you properly. If you have urgency, so let's say you really feel like you gotta go, you gotta go, and you have an accident, then you leak on your way to the restroom. That is a sign of pelvic floor dysfunction. If you pee, and then two minutes later, you feel like you gotta go pee again. That means that you're not completely emptying your bladder, we teach techniques for that in our course, in our program. But that could also be a symptom of pelvic floor dysfunction. Chronic UTIs is a sign that you could have something going on down there and more than likely, it's due to the incomplete emptying because bacteria is sitting, you know, the residual urine sitting in the urethra creates infection. Urgency or any leakage of stool is not normal. You know, many women get confused. A lot of the women that find us have already been to gi doctors and thinking that, you know, some of this is related to diet many times it is you know, there are women who have been diagnosed with Crohn's or IBS or SIBO. And yes, that definitely plays a factor because constipation if you've had chronic constipation, then you're doing a lot of straining while you use the restroom, which can be detrimental to your pelvic floor and create these types of symptoms. So, you know, back in hip pain that maybe, you know, you've gone to the orthopedist, you've had X rays taken and you've told you know, we really don't see anything but you still have these chronic aches and pains. You know, maybe you've noticed it, you're a Yoga Girl, and you're not able to sit in the lotus position or do certain poses because they create either clicking and popping and pain. Those two are all signs of pelvic floor dysfunction. Very early on. And here's what I'll say the great news about this stuff, Katelyn is that for the women who and I don't mean this disrespectfully, but who are just beginning to have those signs. If they invest the time and energy into a program like this, it is unbelievable how quickly these things can get resolved. For women who are not experiencing prolapse, which is really just a progression of pelvic floor dysfunction. Uh, you know, it's a collective thing that happens over time. But I think the other misconception with these issues is it will get better with time, these things will go away. And that just unfortunately, isn't true. If you don't get to the root cause of it. You know, band aids with pills for frequent urination or injections for hip and back pain. Those are all band aids, if you're not addressing the root cause these things will continue to come back. And unfortunately get worse.
Katelyn:
I'm so glad that you said that. Let's normalize this, Jenn. Because I know from your story you shared there is a lot of shame attached to just acknowledging that this is something to pay attention to. But from what I've learned in this conversation, a lot of women struggle with this silently and are just too ashamed to come forward and do something about it. So what advice do you have for this community to make people feel more comforted in taking that next step?
Jenn:
I would just say, if you suspect any of this resonated with you, I would definitely go and take our five minute quiz on our website or you can come hang out with us over on Instagram. We have a lot of great resources in our bio if you're dealing with if you suspect you know you have a separation of the abdominal muscles. We have free training that teaches you how to assess yourself and close that if you're dealing with back pain hip pain, we have part of our course that we share for free as a resource to try to help, you know, just get women out of pain first before trying to begin to build strength. And that is something that we really focus on in our program is balancing, getting rid of the issue, minimizing the issue while building strength, but know that you're not alone. You know, from a statistical perspective, I'm a numbers girl personally. And I was really shocked to learn that one in every three women is dealing with some type of pelvic floor dysfunction. Many at a young age, the last study that I looked at that was published in 2020, was on several teams of cheerleaders, high school cheerleaders, over 80% of them, we're already dealing with some symptoms of pelvic floor dysfunction, specifically with erectile issues. So this is rampant. This is not normal. Oh, one in every nine women is dealing with pelvic organ prolapse. So you are not alone. And, truly, the beautiful thing is, this is an online program that can be done from the comfort of your own home, it's video based, and we have a fabulous private Facebook community where you can come and ask questions. It's a very loving and kind community of women who are dealing with the same things. And you're just there is hope. I think that is the biggest message that we want to spread is you don't have to do key goals. You don't have to stick anything in your hoo ha. And you don't have to accept this as your new normal, there is hope to restore your sense of security, dignity, and your body.
Katelyn:
I love that. And I love that you are really acknowledging the community aspect of this. I think that that is one of the best ways that we can dismantle shame around topics like this. And I just appreciate that you have all these resources and have created these really safe spaces for vulnerable conversations around topics like this. I know, personally, in the work that I do, especially around binge eating, disordered eating in particular, I've been talking about this and have my own personal story with it. For so long that it feels so normal to me, but oh my god, I remember being in, you know, in it and feeling like I could never say the things out loud, and I was the only one going through it. And so it's interesting to hear the parallels in our own communities, and know how important it is to feel seen and safe in spaces where you can access resources and support for healing. And I will just be very honest, for everybody in this community, you mentioned quite a few things on that list that I personally struggle with. So I will absolutely be checking out your program and resources for myself. I think this is really common. So I'm excited to share this with more people and also learn on a personal level as well, too.
Jenn:
I appreciate that I should mention Kaitlin, that, you know, women who have taken you know, abused laxatives or who have been bulimic and induced vomiting, all of that is very taxing on your pelvic floor. So you may notice that even if you've dealt with some of these eating disorders, that you're also dealing with some of these things that we were discussing today.
Katelyn:
Yeah, it makes sense. I was actually just going to ask you about that, Jenn. Because in my own education and research, that was something that was really surprising for me, just digging into the research around pelvic floor dysfunction, and the correlation between eating disorders, I had no idea. It blew my mind. And I really discovered that in the past year. And it makes so much sense and I I'm really transparent about my own journey, but I struggled with bulimia on and off for 15 years and so to you know to be having some of the the ripple effects show up in a pelvic floor dysfunctional way, even for me right now, in my own recovery. It makes a lot of sense. Is there anything else that you can share around that before we wrap just what you've noticed in terms of women who have struggled with eating disorders and their own pelvic floor dysfunction?
Jenn:
I would just say that at the core of all of this really just goes back to those deep beliefs and values that we have about self. We talk about this in our program, and, and more specifically with the coaching clients that we work more one on one with what, what I've noticed over the past 26 years of coaching women, many women who have had eating disorders, to exercise addictions, to, you know, just self image issues, you have to start to me, the first step is changing those beliefs and conversations in our heads about self, and doing it in a way that feels genuine and true. You know, and it can just start with something as simple as I'm doing my best today for what's good for my body. You know, it doesn't have to be these big, lofty statements, but just acknowledgement of the effort. And, you know, if we can't show compassion and kindness to self, it makes it difficult to do that for others. And so, you know, oftentimes as women, and mothers and particularly we are motivated by serving others. And so you know, this is a gift, focusing on self and showing yourself some grace and compassion is such a gift to all the other relationships in your life, because you will be able to serve them better, it's hard to, you know, show empathy and compassion, when you haven't fully given that to yourself, we can only take people as far as we've gone ourselves. So I just, I think belief is such an important thing, and then making a choice, based on those beliefs to go all in with the change that you want to make. And then just taking action from there, those are really the steps that we focus on. And that you know, I have focused on with women over the past 26 years. So I love connecting with other practitioners who have a story, I think there's just something so wonderful about being able to connect with women, and particularly through our own stories, and show that love and compassion and empathy and understanding. So I just commend you, because I know that you are changing women's lives with your story, and just our conversation today and the compassion and grace that you've given me. I just find it so refreshing and wonderful. And I just want to say thank you for all that you're doing.
Katelyn:
I appreciate that. And I really appreciate you and your truth and the time that you've taken to spend with us today. And not only educate because there's so much that you did teach us today, but also your personal vulnerability and how you showed up and shared and I just can't wait for people to explore all of the things that you shared before on their own terms and just so grateful that this resource exists. So we'll link everything that you mentioned before in the show notes. You'll have to come back on the show again, because I feel like there's a lot more we could talk about in different capacities as well, too. But I just thank you so much, Jenn.
Jenn:
Thank you, Katelyn. This was wonderful.
Katelyn:
Yeah, we'll talk soon. Thanks.
