Episode 073 Kathryn Riner: Creating A Healthy Family
Episode 073 Kathryn Riner: Creating A Healthy Family
In this episode we sit down with...Kathryn Riner.
Kathryn is a masters level educated, pediatric dietitian living in St. Louis, MO. She has 14 years of experience working both in her community and at a local US News and World Reports nationally ranked children’s hospital. In 2016 she opened her private practice, Healthy Kids Nutrition, LLC providing compassionate, individualized nutrition therapy to families. In 2019, Kathryn trained with Evelyn Tribole, a co-author of Intuitive Eating and became a Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor. Her mission is to help parents and kids have a positive relationship with food, so everyone can feel happy, healthy and confident around the table.
In this conversation we discuss...
Kathryn’s personal body image story + how that shaped her relationship with food.
Distinguishing disordered eating from sustainable health habits.
Why we fear sugar as a culture and how to create a neutral relationship with sweets for yourself & family.
Why removing the scale is so powerful + practical ways for measuring health long-term.
How families can come together to create healthy relationships with food + body image.
Practical steps for navigating BMI + height & weight when visiting the doctor, at any age.
Connect with our guest Kathryn…
Resources we mention in this episode…
Ready to heal your relationship with food + body?
Book your FREE Body Trust Breakthrough Consult
Grab your FREE Intuitive Eating Workshop
Get weekly email support from me to help you heal your relationship with food + body image
TRANSCRIPTION
Episode 073 Kathryn Riner: Creating A Healthy Family
Katelyn:
Kathryn Riner- Hi, so nice to meet you. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Kathryn:
Hi Katelyn I'm really excited to be here. Thank you so much.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I'm already just thinking about all of the possible things that we're going to talk about. And I'm also trying not to put the cart before the horse, but I just love everything that you're doing. And I know this is the first time we're sitting down and getting to know each other, too. And so my curiosity is just like peaking. So thank you so much for your time and for being with us today. You ready to dive in?
Kathryn:
I am I am. Yes.
Katelyn:
Okay, cool. So the first question that we always ask everybody is your first body awareness moment- So can you paint a picture of what that looked like for you, your first body awareness moment, in that it was the moment that you realized, hey I'm in a body, and this means something in the world that I'm living in
Kathryn (body image story):
Yeah, so I think for me, it wasn't a specific moment in my life, but definitely a specific time in my life. You know, not just one event, but just, kind of all the things that happen when you're in sixth and seventh grade, when I reflect back on this, I think that was really the time where I started to notice my body. And, and how it fits into our world and, and the world of diet culture that we had in the school that I went to. In sixth grade, you wore this jumper uniform. And then in seventh grade, you were in the upper school, and you switched to a skirt with a polo. And I think I was really just growing. But I remember feeling very self conscious in those uniforms. And as the school year progressed, maybe they didn't fit, as well, as it did at the beginning of the year. And I felt really self conscious about that. And I think, you know, just at that age, I was starting to learn that certain foods are perceived to be good, and others are perceived to be bad. You know, that the thin ideal is something I became aware of, and I think that's also when I started body checking, which I didn't even really know was a thing until much later, but all of those feelings, um, you know, I think I carried with me until high school, and I started dieting. When I was, I think about 15 I remember going to Weight Watchers, with my mom. She was very compassionate and very well meaning. But that's when my dieting began. And I now know, of course, that dieting is disordered eating. Of course, I didn't know that at the time. But, I carried all of those disordered eating behaviors with me, you know, through high school, through college, and even grad school. You know, and that, you know, sparked my interest in nutrition, of course, and so I went to school to be a Dietitian. And I love my field, I absolutely do. You know, I went into nutrition because I felt like it can help everyone. But, in my early career, I actually went into Pediatrics, which I think is such a blessing, I never really was, you know, promoting, you know, weight loss per se, in pediatrics, you are really focusing on growth and weight gain. You're trying to help families navigate, maybe, you know, some medically complex situations. And, you know, so much of my career was, you know, on growth, but I did enough outpatient counseling that there was some, you know, weight loss counseling there initially, too. But fast forward, I opened my private practice four and a half years ago, and I knew going into it that I didn't want to focus on weight. It was really cognitive dissonance where I just didn't know why but I felt really uncomfortable weighing kids and putting, you know, a lot of focus on weight. I really wanted to focus on health promoting behavior changes and just how nutrition can help us feel good. Anyway, eventually, of course with all of the learning you want you do when you open a private practice, you just, you're kind of a sponge and soaking everything up, I stumbled across Intuitive Eating, I fell in love with it, and I have never looked back. So, yeah, starting in sixth grade is probably when that began. And it really did shape my career path.
Katelyn:
That's such a strong story, Kathryn, I appreciate how succinct you are with telling it. And I also have a million questions from everything that you just share.
Kathryn:
Go right ahead.
Katelyn:
So you mentioned, I think it's really interesting that you start your story in sixth and seventh grade, which is a highly impressionable age, as you know, and it tends to be the age where most women who have come on this podcast kind of have their point of entry with some type of body dissatisfaction, right. So it makes sense to me. And one of the things that you mentioned that I'm curious about is body checking. So knowing what you know, now, can you explain to everybody who's listening, what is body checking? And what were some of the body checking rituals that you were doing back then that you now realize, in hindsight, was kind of amplifying this disordered behavior?
Kathryn:
Yeah, so and I don't know, if you've had a similar experience, Katelyn, but I felt like when I discovered Intuitive Eating, and read the book, and, you know, studied with Evelyn Tribole, I had several aha moments, and that was one of them. I mean, it was like, they were in my head, you know, I didn't even know I was doing it, and that it had a name, but essentially, body checking is when you are in a room with a group of people, and you are comparing your size to the other people in the room. You know, and whether you're, you know, in a smaller body or a larger body compared to those other people. And that can really shape how you feel about yourself. So I think I did that starting in sixth or seventh grade, you know, until I, you know, became a Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor, and really did all of the work to really address some of those thoughts. But I think it was always in my subconscious, I didn't even know that I was doing it, or that it had a name.
Katelyn:
So interesting. So from your lived experience, it sounds like it was more of this external judgment, kind of like this comparison of, what are they doing? What am I doing? How do we look? How do we compare to each other?
Kathryn:
Yeah, absolutely.
Katelyn:
Okay, that is really interesting, because I, I totally know what you mean, I had a massive lightbulb moment like that for myself when I started going through my own Intuitive Eating education as well too around body checking. And for me, it was less about that comparison, and more about physical body checking. So like, lifting up my shirt, or measuring myself within my clothes, or truthfully, like, I buried this so deeply, but I remember, I would have like tape measures when I was growing up, and I would measure my waist and write down like my, like stats and things like that. So it's just so it's so interesting how this shows up in so many different ways. And for you, how did that shape your relationships at the time?
Kathryn:
I think it was pretty neutral. I think it was more my relationship with myself, not necessarily with other people. You know, and I will say, even, you know, some of the body checking you did personally, I know I did some of that as well. You know, but it wouldn't I didn't think it necessarily affected my friendships or anything like that, but it was more or less, again, my relationship with myself.
Katelyn:
Which is like the most important relationship.
Kathryn:
It is, it is absolutely.
Katelyn:
So going to Weight Watchers with your mom were these like actual physical meetings?
Kathryn:
Yes.
Katelyn:
Yeah. So tell us about that experience. Were you actually going through the process of doing Weight Watchers yourself? Or were you just kind of sitting back while mom was doing it herself? What was your experience like?
Kathryn:
Um, I fully participated. I learned label reading. I learned how to measure portions and how to track. And I remember feeling so nervous going to those weigh-ins. You know, and, and that would shape how I felt about myself that day, even though or maybe even that week, you know, even though my body was exactly the same, you know, the moment I stepped on the scale till after, right? I mean, nothing changes in that second, but there's just, you know, that tremendous feeling of being disappointed or happy with whatever number you see. And so, I was all-in. And then I did it on and off for years. And again, I think it really kind of, you know, taught me various, you know, disordered eating behaviors, where I was trying to, you know, be a smaller size as if that was going to change anything.
Katelyn:
Can you share some of the disordered eating behaviors? I actually don't know if we've ever had a conversation like this on the podcast. And I know that some people bristle when they hear disordered eating, because it is somewhat of a confusing term in our culture right now, when in fact, there are like, majority people are actually engaging in disordered eating. So if you don't mind, just transparently, what were some of the things in hindsight, you can kind of look back and say, that was absolutely disordered eating? And I'd love to have a deeper conversation about this and expand on it just. Yeah.
Kathryn:
Yeah. So um, the thing that comes to mind, and I just, I wish I could go back and give myself a big hug and say, why did why did you spend your time doing this, but I remember in college, I kept a spreadsheet of what I ate, and then the different macronutrients, the calories, I think I even tracked sodium just because and I did that for a long time. And I remember thinking, I wasn't trying to stay at a certain calorie goal, you know, that, you know, I didn't, I didn't worry if I, you know, ate more than what I, you know, quote unquote, thought I needed. I also tracked my activity and how many calories I thought I burned during that. And I thought I was just paying attention, I thought I was just, you know, trying to make healthy choices, when really that was definitely a restriction, right. I wasn't listening to my internal cues for hunger and satisfaction. And, you know, I was really focusing on external cues. And so when I learned about Intuitive Eating and studied it, that was the memory that came to mind of something that really was quite disordered.
Katelyn:
I think that is a great summary of disordered eating in terms of just identifying it from that place of external versus internal cues.
Kathryn:
And you know, really, it, I'm sure, it's very similar to, you know, some of the apps that are out there now, right, where people just track what they eat. And I was just thinking that yeah,I started that with Weight Watchers, right, I was tracking what I was eating, and I thought I was just making healthy choices- all that time and energy that went into the spreadsheet could have been going into something else. So it is similar to what other people may be doing, but that was really an aha moment for me, again with intuitive eating how I spent years of my life focusing on the external instead of the internal.
Katelyn:
And to your point with Weight Watchers and the apps now and everything, I'm curious how you feel about this- I feel like there's this huge sense of community too, as well as just like almost this competitive edge that really loops people in to the cycle of tracking and sharing and just being a part of these different things. Did you feel like that at all when you were going through Weight Watchers at the time liket just being at the meetings I know that you mentioned just the emotional roller coaster of almost like that internal competition of thinking did I hit my goal weight this week, or did I not and everything that kind of went with that, but what was the community aspect like for you?
Kathryn:
You know, that's a really good question, Katelyn. And now that I think about that, I think I had a lot of shame. I was a teenager in a room of adults. And, I felt like I had a problem or that there was something wrong or that, I was trying to fix something. I didn't walk around proudly telling people, hey, I'm going to these meetings or anything, I think I had a lot of shame around it really. So,for me, there wasn't the community aspect that was helpful. I wanted to go, for sure, but the community didn't have a positive impact on me.
Katelyn:
Why did you want to go?
Kathryn:
Um, yeah, I mean, I guess going back to, you know, being in middle school and going into high school, just that body dissatisfaction and thinking that I needed to lose weight.
Katelyn:
So just like that really strong will of I'll do anything to lose this weight, even at the expense of feeling that shame or that pressure.
Kathryn:
Right, right. And thinking that it was the healthy thing to do. You know, I thought I was trying to help myself.
Katelyn:
Yeah, let's talk about that. Because that kind of goes into this disordered eating conversation as well, too. And this is where I have a lot of compassion for, for myself, in hindsight, and like, all those years, where I have very similar experiences, thinking that it was health promoting, when it was like, truthfully, self harming, I think a lot of people get wrapped up in this confusion of, I just want to be healthy. And being in a culture that confuses that so much. Where do you see people in your practice right now, really, being met with that confusion the most?
Kathryn:
I would say, a lot of times, it can be the teenagers, but, you know, even the parents, right. The parents want their child to be healthy, and to have a healthy relationship with food. And I always tell people, I don't focus on weight, I focus on having a healthy relationship with food, but when I dig a little bit deeper, it really seems like it's the whole family that I'm working with, right? It's not just one particular child, per se, it's really kind of trying to help the whole family, if that makes sense.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. It's so important, and how did you...I feel like I'm jumping ahead, but since we're already talking about it...how did you reach that lightbulb moment for yourself, where you really realized, hey, we have to focus on the whole family here to really make a collective shift?
Kathryn:
So one thing that I do that, I feel like really, is the best way to help my families is, I will often work with just the parents, especially if they're calling me about a younger child, where I feel like the best way I can help them is not including the child in the conversation at all. So if maybe they're seeing their child is sneaking food, or the parents have a lot of questions about nutrition and they want to help, you know, it's very well meaning and they want to set their kids up for having a healthy relationship with food, and so they don't really know what to do. And so a lot of times, I really am just working with the parents. And I think, you know, leave the child at school in the pre-COVID world, right? Don't you know, bring the child to come and talk to me about nutrition. You know, since the parents are the ones cooking and shopping and they really control a lot of that narrative I really enjoy working with just them. If it's an older teenager or young adult, and they have questions and they want to reach out then I'll work more directly with the teenager. But those younger kids, I find it most helpful to work directly with the parents only
Katelyn:
I love that. What are some of the trends that you're seeing right now, Kathryn in terms of just the cultural shifts with teenagers and younger children too whether it's behaviors from the kids that you're actually working with, if they're old enough or their parents. What are some of the diet trends or kind of the diets in disguise- more of that disordered eating under the guise of health that we've kind of been referencing up until now, what are some things that are reoccurring for you in conversation?
Kathryn:
I think the biggest thing that comes to mind right away is sugar. You know, people have a lot of fear around sugar, and thinking that if they let their kids eat it, that they won't know when to stop. So really trying to help them understand Food Habituation, helping parents have that structure of Ellyn Satter if you're familiar with her?
Katelyn:
Yes.
Kathryn:
Okay. Yeah so you know, the parents decide what food they're going to offer, when and where they're going to offer it. And then really, it's up to the child if and how much they're going to eat. But sugar intake seems to be something that's come up many times, recently with families, and I don't know if it's, you know, COVID and just being home more, or the holidays. But that seems to be something that I've heard over and over again.
Katelyn:
Do you think that is a reflection on the parents' fear and their fear of sugar that they're more or less projecting on their child? Or do you feel like it's more of this cultural narrative that we've perpetuated generationally around, like, don't give your kids too much sugar? Or, like, where do you feel like that's coming from, in your opinion?
Kathryn:
I can immediately think of clients, where both has been true, where the parent has relayed some of their binge restrict cycle patterns with certain foods.I think it really more is just kind of the, the culture, where people hear that, like, you could be addicted to sugar, or things like that, and so I think it's both. It could be the parents' own relationship with food. But I think diet culture itself is really very powerful. And even if a parent hasn't struggled with that, in the past, themselves, they very much could be influenced by the messages from the world that we live in.
Katelyn:
I totally agree. And sugar has been under the microscope for the past, gosh, I don't even know, especially the past five years, there's just so much fear around sugar. I mean, I hear this all of the time from my own clients, and I don't work with that many parents and children. So this is a really interesting perspective. And just in terms of parents, or people who are thinking about becoming parents, or anybody who's listening who has their own fears around sugar right now, can you break this down for us? Why are people afraid of sugar? Why do people feel addicted to sugar? What's kind of the zoomed out version of what's creating this fear for everybody right now?
Kathryn:
I think in part, it's kind of the forbidden fruit, right? So, people, again, might label food is good or bad. And so anything bad is probably going to be a higher sugar food. And with the different diets that are out there, right now, carbohydrates are maybe, you know, thought to be, quote unquote, bad, right. And so culturally, I think it's just diet culture in general.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I think so too. And I think marketing plays such a big role in this as well, too. You know, just in terms of sugar free, and all of these things like reduced sugar and all the language, I feel like we've just kind of created a new vocabulary that demonizes sugar. I always think of the concept- and I'd be curious about your opinion about this for kids too- but the things that we often overeat or find ourselves bingeing on are typically the things that we're restricting too.
Kathryn:
Absolutely, right. Absolutely. And so, yeah, having adequate exposure to those foods is such an important part of being able to be neutral around them. So not just our parents being emotionally neutral around food, you know, but if they can do that, then they can teach their kids that behavior as well.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. So I have a really specific example, that was actually a question brought to my attention a few years ago by a parent, and I’d be curious how you would address this with somebody in your own practice, but let's just use Halloween candy for example- it could be Easter candies, or whatever holiday is coming up- where there just tends to be a lot of sugar in the house based on the season. So the question that was posed to me is:
How do I not demonize this food and not make it a fear food for my kid? But at the same time, how do I introduce it in our house, when I know that, like, they're just going to keep eating it in excess and get sick? And I don't want to hide it.
Like, what's the relationship to have around these holidays where there are more sweets than a normal day. And this could kind of go beyond the holidays too, in your expertise. But I'd be curious, how do you handle that with families?
Kathryn:
I love that question. Because, yeah, I mean, candy is available year round, right, it's not just Easter, or Halloween, you know, it's in the store year round. And I think one of the best ways to really help families navigate the holidays is to include those foods throughout the year whether that is putting some sweets in their child's lunchbox or including it at snack time, sometimes where it's not this food that is forbidden and kept out of the home. But then also, the parents should role model eating it too, right. So just as parents may role model eating fruits and vegetables, they should also role model, eating sweets, as well and having that neutrality around food, no matter what it is, I think is really, really powerful. So you want to have those foods available to your kids throughout the year. So that it really is something that they get frequent exposure to, which is the power of Food Habituation, right, so the more you have something, the more neutral you can become to it, right? So maybe initially a cupcake could be really exciting. But if you can eat cupcakes, whenever it may not be as exciting. And not that you're trying to trick yourself or your kids into never wanting them. But by having adequate access and frequent exposure, it can help kids and parents tune into themselves. And is that cupcake really going to be satisfying at the moment? Or could I eat it another time when it would be more satisfying?
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. I love that so much, Kathryn. Just that suggestion of normalizing these foods. And also, it's so powerful what you mentioned about just role modeling for kids too. And, to your point I can absolutely see why working one-on-one with parents exclusively is so important for your work, because I can only imagine the fears that parents bump up against when they're doing this work, when their focus is on the child, you know. But really, I would imagine that these deeper fears are kind of like uncovered around food as well when you really get in there and start working with them as well too.
Kathryn:
Absolutely. Yeah. It is the whole family and working with the parents, addressing their relationship with food first can really help the kids in the long run.
Katelyn:
So let's go back to the concept of Food Habituation. This is really powerful especially as it relates to kids, but really for everybody as well, too. So can you give a specific example, about what this would look like for somebody, maybe just using one food as an example? And yeah, I think you explained the concept of this really well but if anybody is thinking, how do I start doing this for myself? What would be the first point of entry for somebody who's curious? And why would it be important for them- what are some of the benefits of adding this exercise into their life?
Kathryn:
I think using food habituation to make peace with a certain food can really help in your journey to healing your relationship with food and your body. And so, maybe I'll give you the example of cookies: maybe cookies are something that somebody may feel like they always overeat, or can't keep them in the house, because they'll eat them all. And in reality, that exposure helps you make peace with that food. So we just came off the holidays. So if somebody was celebrating Christmas, and there's a lot of Christmas cookies around, initially that may be really exciting. You know, you may find yourself eating them a lot. But throughout the Christmas season, they actually become less and less desirable, right? So that you kind of get to that point where you can take it or leave it. And yes, it may be delicious. Or maybe, you're really not that excited about it. And it helps you decrease your anxiety around food, knowing that you can eat the foods that really tastes good to you at that time, and that's okay.
Katelyn:
Yeah, that's so important. And I love that example. Thank you so much for sharing that. I totally agree, I think there's this fear that we hold on to when we restrict food subconsciously, or when we attach morality to foods in terms of things being good or things being bad, when we start to have that inner dialogue going on in our minds of, okay I'll just have the cookie today, and then I won't have any more tomorrow or all this week, and we start to play those those mind games. And it really does create this dramatic relationship with food. I feel like this really does a number on our self trust, too. And it's kind of like that idea of being in a partnership with somebody, and starting to build that trust. You know, the beginning of a relationship, hearing, I love you and getting that feeling and being so excited. And then afterwards, you know, saying it over and over and over and over again. It doesn't mean you love the person less, but the novelty has worn off around that as well, too.
Kathryn:
Yeah, exactly. No, that's a great way to describe it using something else for sure.
Katelyn:
Yeah, so in terms of families, and working with kids and families, and all of these things, what are some of your other favorite areas that you really like to support families with in terms of just creating a peaceful relationship with food? What are some things when they're on the table and you get to work with clients, that really get you excited, and possibly conversations that you feel like just aren't being talked about a lot right now?
Kathryn:
Yeah, you know, being a new mom myself, I can recognize a little bit better maybe how parents feel about their own body. And maybe just some of the changes that they've experienced, because being in Pediatrics I mean, I work with newborns through young adults. And so being able to relate to parents and moms in that way now, I think is really pretty powerful. And so I love talking about body respect, and really being grateful for what our bodies can do. You know, I just think that's really fun to explore.
Katelyn:
What does that mean for you? I love the term body respect so much, how would you define it?
Kathryn:
I think it is maybe it's not loving your body, maybe it's not always feeling positive about your body, but it is always taking care of it. And so even if you’re not having the greatest body image day, you can still take care of your body and know that you're doing something really good for yourself. So whether that is adequately nourishing yourself throughout the day, or wearing clothes that fit and are comfortable. You know, there's things that you can do, where you really are showing yourself some respect.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I love that. And one thing that you mentioned earlier in our conversation, too, that I feel like ties really nicely with this concept of body respect, is health promoting behaviors. And I really heard that when you said, at the beginning of your practice, that's where your focus was, rather than just weight loss and the scale with your patients, and specifically kids. So what are some health promoting behaviors that you really actively teach your clients? And how does that relate to body respect?
Kathryn:
I think one of them is finding joy in movement. You know, sometimes people talk about exercise, and I think there's just such a difference in those words. I always really try to encourage people to move in a way that is joyful for them. Of course, never talking about calories, or, you know trying to get a calorie burn or anything like that, but just finding the joy in moving your body. And what does that do for your energy level? What does it do for your sleep? How does it even make you feel about yourself, that you're taking care of your body by moving it in a way that brings you joy. So I really like to talk about that for sure. And then also, the other part is just nutritional adequacy, you know, knowing that we need to eat throughout the day. We need to take time out of our day to nourish ourselves. And instead of trying to think about if we quote unquote, should be hungry, right, just listening to our bodies, and knowing that some days, we're going to be hungrier than others, and that's fine. And so, finding joy in movement, and then, you know, nutritional adequacy, I think is really important for respecting our bodies.
Katelyn:
So important, I love both of those concepts. And there's so much resistance that can be met with both of those concepts too just based in the culture that we're living in, as well. And just like what you said, I see this a lot with clients. I'd be curious to see what your experience is like, too, but just that idea of being hungrier some days and not being comfortable with that, And just that inner dialogue that comes up when, when you do realize that you are hungry. So when a client's struggling with that how do you support them? What are some tools that you use with them? Or how do you guide them in that process of just navigating nutritional adequacy from a place of self-care and, and really just that compassion through the culture that we live in, with everything going on?
Kathryn:
Yeah, so I always tried to ask my clients whenever they're reflecting on a situation to really do so from a place of curiosity instead of judgment. You know, so if they are feeling like they were hungrier that day, and maybe they even ate something or more of something thatthey otherwise would have liked to, or whatever the situation is, where they just don't feel like they liked the end result. It's trying to figure out what we can learn from that. You know, did they skip meals? Did they not get enough to eat for breakfast? Had they moved a lot over the past couple of days where maybe their hunger level really was naturally higher? You know, what can you learn about the situation, so that you can navigate it in the future and again, from a place of curiosity, and not judgment and without shame?
Katelyn:
I love that. Yeah, it's a concept that's not really reinforced in our culture. So it sounds countercultural. But I find that too, it's so important just having the space with ourselves to get curious and observe and gather that information on a bio-individual level. I want to shift gears for a minute, Kathryn, because something keeps coming to my mind and I want to make sure that we talk about it if you're open to having a conversation around this topic. But one of the things that you mentioned that really struck a chord with me is at the beginning of your practice, really kind of going against the weight loss pediatric model that's kind of being preached right now in the industry. So in your practice, and how you support clients and kids, how do you approach the scale with kids and families as well, too, because that's something that I hear about a lot. And even as a mom to adjust the scale and go to doctors offices, and really making sure that your child is not not falling into disordered habits because of that and that it’s not being reinforced in your family in a disordered way. And weight in general, just having those conversations, how does that show up? And how do you guide your clients through that?
Kathryn:
So I think initially, when a parent calls me, I right away tell them that I don't focus on weight. And I don't weigh my clients at all, when we were meeting in person, pre-COVID, I wouldn't even do it. I mean, there were a few situations where maybe it was necessary for a toddler, but in general, I was not weighing my clients. And as part of my initial paperwork, I would always get a release of information to get a copy of the growth chart from the pediatrician, just to understand what the child's growth pattern had been, and maybe what their genetic potential is for, you know, the curve that they're following. But I never would address that. And I think my parents have been so grateful for that, you know, I've had a couple of moms just say that it was so nice- if this was maybe like an older teen that they were bringing to an appointment, where that wasn't even discussed. And I think that was really helpful. In talking with parents privately without their kids, you know, I do suggest putting the scale away and challenging them to get comfortable with putting the scale away because, again, it all starts with the parents, right. So, a child's relationship with food is significantly impacted by their parents own relationship with themselves and food and their body. And so if we can get rid of the scale, with the parents, I think that also goes a long way. If the kids don't even see it, that can be something that families can do at home to help prevent that becoming an issue down the road. So, both in my practice, when we were meeting in person I never made that an issue. And then I always encourage my parents to also work on that themselves and get comfortable with not knowing what they weigh.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. Why is that so important- for anybody who's listening to this and just saying, like, why is the scale something that should be avoided? And how is this harmful? How, how can you educate anybody who's kind of curious about that right now? Why Is this important?
Kathryn:
Yeah, you know, I think, two main reasons- the first is we unfortunately put a lot of value of ourselves on that number, right? So if that number is higher, or lower than what we think it should be, it impacts our mood for the day or the week or it might even impact our food choices or behaviors that day or week but the other big thing is that the number on the scale actually has very little to do with our health. You know, there's so much more that we look at whether it's mental health or physical health or looking at blood pressure and blood sugar and cholesterol. There's so many other things that really actually impact health, of course, social determinants of health that could be a whole other podcast episode. And so our weight or BMI is just not a good indicator of our health. So, you know, it's not helpful information from that perspective. But then also, in terms of how we feel about ourselves, it's usually really not very helpful there either.
Katelyn:
I can see so much pushback with this. And, like, I'm just having all of these visuals right now, just hearing you explain this, of being a kid in the doctor's office, staring at the BMI chart. And I remember being in middle school and high school and knowing that I had to get weighed and feeling so triggered around that. And of course, you know, when you're a kid you're growing like you should be, your body is changing, like, that's what should happen. But just feeling that pressure of Oh, my gosh, am I in the range? Am I doing it right? And so much worth and so much value attached to that. But it's also a part of our medical system, too. And there's just so much confusion around that, and the BMI system is so flawed in general, but for any parent who's listening to this, who's thinking, like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, how am I supposed to know if I need to be concerned if we're not measuring BMI? How do you handle conversations like that with parents in terms of the BMI chart and growth chart and all of those things? And are there any resources that you share with clients that you'd be willing to share here?
Kathryn:
So I always tell my parents that I encourage them to talk openly with their pediatrician and I don't think there's anything wrong with calling in advance and saying that they don't want to know the weight and the height measurements to be a big deal, you know. Maybe, to ask that there'll be no comment about that, right? Certainly with those measurements, pediatricians need to know that kids are developing appropriately. So I understand why those measurements are taken, but \just asking that it be done discreetly, you know, I think pediatricians want to help their families too. And I think just that open communication is really key. So definitely reaching out to their providers to have that conversation in advance, I think can go a long way. And then also to older, young adults, you know, even just telling them that it is their right to ask not to be weighed, right, that it isn't necessary, as part of their physical exam. And so empowering them that they can make that decision once they're, they're older. I think just even laying the groundwork, or just kind of putting the buzz in their ear that they can be empowered to make those decisions for themselves and their family can go a long way.
Katelyn:
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that- it's so helpful. It's a great actionable, and I hope that we can have more conversations like this with doctors and people in the medical field as well, too. Because to your point, I mean, health is measured in so many ways beyond the scale. And I don't know about you, I certainly was not getting asked questions around my stress and sleep and mental health when I was growing up. And so I hope that that's something that will continue to shift in these conversations, just through the medical community as well, too. Do you feel like that is something that is shifting right now with medical professionals that you partner with regularly, or do you feel like there's still a lot of work that needs to be done around that?
Kathryn:
I think, you know, with eating disorders being on the rise, I think people are becoming more aware of what they say or how they say it or, you know, just the impact that a provider can have on shaping how a child may feel about themselves. But I can also think of some situations where maybe we do still have a long way to go. You know, and even just thinking about myself, I mean, I just discovered intuitive eating a couple of years ago, but I've been a dietitian for 14 years. So, you know, just kind of having that compassion that we're all learning and evolving, and trying to do the best with what we have and what we know at the time. So I am hopeful that as more and more people learn about intuitive eating, and helping families have a positive relationship with food, and their bodies that there'll be less emphasis on weight, and the scale and the BMI chart. And we'll continue to move forward in that area.
Katelyn:
I hope so too and I also love what you just said about compassion and self-compassion. And yeah, especially parents. I mean, you're seeing it firsthand, Kathryn, but parents are almost always just doing the best that they can with the information that they have, as well as swimming in this culture themselves, trying to keep their head above water and doing their own work. And sometimes you don't know what you don't know, right? And like you said, just being introduced to intuitive eating a few years ago. There's so much room for conversations around this and learning and curiosity. And I'm just so grateful that you're in this space, doing this work, educating and supporting families. It's just so important. And I, I'm just so glad that we were able to have this conversation today, too. There's so many amazing takeaways here.
Kathryn:
Thank you, Katelyn. Yes, I, I loved getting the chance to talk with you. And I love what I do. And, you know, just trying to help one one family at a time.
Katelyn:
Awesome. So for everybody who's listening, where can they connect with you? And also, who would be the person to connect with you? I know that you mentioned you work with parents as well as kids as well, too. But if anybody's listening, thinking, hey, am I the right type of client that would be a fit for her? Can you just elaborate on that a little bit as well, too?
Kathryn:
Yeah, absolutely. So um, so my website is healthykidsnutrition.com. On Instagram, I am @intuitive.eating.for.moms. And I live and practice in St. Louis, Missouri. And I usually will have parents that reach out to me initially, so even if it is their teenager, that I'll end up working with one on one, the parent usually just who I set up that, you know, initial discovery call with just to share my approach and learn a little bit more about how I could help the family or the teen. So initially, it would be the parents, for sure, is how I usually get started.
Katelyn:
Okay, awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much. This was super valuable, and I just so appreciate everything that you're doing and what you're contributing to the world. Really. It's awesome.
Kathryn:
Thank you so much, Katelyn.