Episode 123: Binge Eating, Anxiety, & Re-Defining “Normal” Eating with Mikala Jamison
Episode 123: Binge Eating, Anxiety, & Re-Defining “Normal” Eating
In this episode we sit down with....Mikala Jamison.
Mikala Jamison is a journalist, certified group exercise instructor, and weightlifter in the D.C. area. She publishes a newsletter, Body Type, on body image, recovery from binge eating, the complicated feelings around bodily change, and more. Mikala is passionate about helping people understand more about binge eating disorder and encouraging people, especially women, find physical and mental strength through joyful movement.
In this conversation we talk about:
Mikala’s personal body image story- growing up developing more quickly than her peers and feeling different from her family.
Navigating binge eating in adolescence, and the secrecy and shame that co-occurred.
Mikala's experience with anxiety and the story of her first panic attack.
Discovering therapy and movement practices to help reconnect with her body and heal her binge eating patterns.
The importance of fitness professionals shifting their message from diet culture and weight-centric language to create safe, empowering spaces.
Re-defining the concept of a “normal” relationship with food and what long-term recovery actually looks like.
The challenges that she faces today within her food and body image journey and the tools that she uses during tough times.
Connect with our guest...
Resources we mention in this episode…
Mikala is producing a live storytelling show about bodies/body image as part of the local Capital Fringe Festival. "The Body Show" In live storytelling shows, people tell true stories from their life onstage, and the theme of this show is bodily autonomy, body image, and all the experiences, challenges, and triumphs people have with and in their bodies will run on July 16, 17, 23, and 24 in Georgetown, Washington, D.C. For more details follow @bodytype on Instagram & visit capitalfringe.org.
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TRANSCRIPTION Episode 123: Binge Eating, Anxiety, & Re-Defining “Normal” Eating
Katelyn:
All right, Mikala Jamison. Hi, welcome to the show.
Mikala:
Thank you so much. It's my pleasure to be here to talk to you today.
Katelyn:
It's my pleasure to have you here today. I'm really excited about this conversation. Let's get into it. Tell us your first body awareness moment. This is the question we asked everybody on the show. And I'm curious what that moment looked like for you that moment where you realized, I'm in a body, apparently, this means something in the world that I'm living in. And also from that moment, your body image stories. So how did that impact your relationship with food or your body or yourself in general? What's your story?
Mikala:
Yeah, I love this question, because it really gets you thinking. And for me, I just remember kind of a swirling mass of memories that all kind of, were about me being bigger than other girls. So my earliest memories were being like the tall girl, the girl that hit puberty early and had bigger breasts than all her friends and like, towered over everyone and weighed more than everyone and I kind of I just looked like a curvy kind of grown up woman when all of my friends still looked like children. And that was very strange, because I felt you know, that body awkwardness, kind of not knowing what to do with myself that growing up very quickly, kind of anxiety, and not knowing really why that felt like it was problematic, like it was, it was problematic because my girlfriend's you know, these girls that hadn't developed already thought it was weird, because I was doing it before everyone else I was taller than everyone else, I was bigger than everyone else. Like there were grown men who would say inappropriate stuff to me or act weird to me or the boys in my school. And when you're that young, you know, I'm talking about being like 10 or 11, you don't get it you don't get why something is apparently a missed and it's everything's changing for you.
But everyone else is also acting like something sort of out of control, or like freakish is going on. So those memories of just being larger, kind of affected everything from how other people treated me to just kind of how I how I felt like shame. I remember, things like wearing a tank top would be scandalous, you know, in school on me, even though I wasn't showing anything, it was just that like I wasn't flat chested. So it was a problem. They actually had to give me a sweater in school once I've heard other women talking about similar stories and how that's just so destabilizing when you're young. And it's like something about your body is problematic. So I just remember feeling like those body awareness moments, early in my life, were ones that made me feel like my body was something to be like covered up or tucked away, or just kind of played down. So I had a lot of sort of fear of my own body, I guess is how I would remember that that time.
Katelyn:
Did you? Did you have anybody in your family? Either your immediate or your extended family who had a similar body type to yourself? Or did you feel completely on your own at this point?
Mikala:
Yeah, my, you know, my mom, in my family, it's my dad, my mom, my brother and I, so I'm, there's I don't have any sisters or anything. So I'd had no immediate family, like contemporary girls that were going through anything like I was, and my mom is a lot shorter than me, and she's kind of just genuinely more petite than I am. So I felt I remember feeling weird that I was like, bigger than her. Like I was bigger than an adult. You know, I think when you're a kid, you just adults are bigger, and they're older. And they're adults. And I'm kids. And so it was very strange. I remember learning, like what my mom weighed and what I weighed. And I didn't understand that. I was like, I feel like I'm not supposed to be like that. I'm not supposed to be that size, because she's a grown up. And I'm a young person. And I don't think that she I think that she could see what I was going through in terms of just being hyper visible as a young woman. And that I'm sure kind of freaked her out and she was protective of me. But I don't know that she had the same experience when she was younger. And she also had three sisters and maybe they kind of were all going through it together or in different ways, but I just kind of felt very alone in it. Like no one else has a body like mine at this point when I'm 10 or 11. And I remember I kind of tried to make it funny like they're like with my friends. I remember we would like try on each other's pants or like, try on each other's bras like silly like little girl stuff that you would do. I And you know, they could like, they're my pants were like huge on them, or like their bras wouldn't even fit me. And it was like, Oh, we're playing around, this is a joke. We're all kind of discovering what it means to have different sized bodies.
But it also, I think I was doing that as a defense mechanism, I felt very uncomfortable, but I had to, I felt like I had to make it a joke, something that I was actually just going to ask you about that how you kind of got through that time. And if you did use any kind of self deprecating humor, because most people who have a story that similar to yours kind of go one direction or the other, where you just retreat into the shadows. And really even you know, even if you feel like you're sticking out, like you just really shut down and all areas, or you kind of state the obvious and play into it at the expense of yourself, essentially, it sounds like that's what you're doing here. Yeah, and I don't remember it feeling cruel or anything. Not with like, my good friends, but I feel like I, I wanted to beat them to the punch, I'm the big I'm the big girl or like, we're gonna go to the mall together when we're in sixth grade. And like, I have to buy this size pants. You guys go by those types of like, I just wanted to say it like before someone else said it, I guess because I was developing this understanding, like you said, of oh, this body of mine. I guess it means something. So now I'm going to say that as much as possible, because I want to make sure I say it and I own it. I guess before you do. I felt like it was a way of kind of grasping some sort of control over it, even though I don't, I don't think I got it at the time, like what the problem was, or like what it all meant for me, you know?
Katelyn:
Well, that makes a lot of sense. And the control piece, and also just having some ownership, which I think we're all looking for in adolescence, just figuring out who we are, what our identity is what we own in this world, especially our bodies, which I think is one of the reasons why disordered eating and eating disorders is so problematic, because it's one of those like easy access points to begin finding some control and autonomy and RCN. So for you, how did you? How did you go through the rest of your adolescence? What type of relationship did you have with food and your body and just yourself in general?
Mikala:
Yeah, I think a lot of it springs from what we were just saying about that sense of agency or that sense of control. And I remember in my household, like I said it, you know, it was to my dad and my brother, so like two men, two women, my mom and myself, and I have these, these memories of certain foods feeling like, those are boy foods. And these are girl foods, like my brother and my dad, those are the things that are in the pantry for them. Then my mom and I were eating different foods. And my mom, you know, she never said anything cruel to me, or anything that made me feel directly like she was shaming my body. But as I was growing up, I was becoming a bigger person, because I was developing these issues with binge eating, and that and that was affecting me personally, it doesn't affect everyone like this, but I was gaining weight. And I think my mom, she was concerned about that for all the myriad reasons that problematic and otherwise, that we could get into that we won't.
But I think she wanted to control that. I think she saw it as a problem. And she wanted me to not be a bigger girl, or young woman. And she always regulated what she ate. She was always on diets. I remember diet books on the shelves. And I've talked with her about this. And you know, I don't feel like I have any ill feelings towards her about this, because I kind of think that, like she was suffering under this system much in the way that I was. And so many of us have, like see, she grew up with the skinny lose weight beyond the diet. And I think it's just what she knew. And I don't think she had the tools to understand or talk to me about why am I eating the way that I am? Or, you know, how am I feeling in my body, it was just kind of assumed that like, something's happening. And this is this is not what should be happening. And so with these sort of boy and girl foods, I was eating how my mom was eating because she was kind of like eat this way this is quote unquote healthy. Your brother and your dad eat these other things. And so that sense of control that we were talking about. I think that manifested as I became a teenager, I was like rebellious I felt like I have no sense of agency in my own body or my body feels like this out of control thing because cuz I grew up quickly and I'm bigger and people treat me weird and I don't get it. And it was just kind of, you know, teenage angst. And I think it developed into binge eating because I wanted to push back against this external directive to not eat certain things, which is you know, it's it goes into that sort of restrict binge thing, like someone else was kind of restrict, trying to tell me to restrict what I ate. And then, you know, in the cover of night, I'd like go into the pantry and eat as much as I wanted, because I felt like, well, I get to do this. Now, I don't want to listen to you telling me what I have to do about my body and my eating.
Katelyn:
So your binges were in secrecy when you were growing up?
Mikala:
Yeah, I think that my disordered eating which man sorry, manifested and binging that was happening as I was a teenager, and then later in college, but yeah, it would be it was this thing like behind my mom's back, or like at night or high, you know, sneaking food into my room, or whatever, or eating a lot of food over a friend's house or something. So the, you know, the sort of journey of that, in the rest of my life. It was, it was strange to look at it on the long timeline, because sometimes I would like go on these diets with my mom. I remember going on the Atkins diet. And just like the harrowing weird foods, we would eat, like pork rinds and stuff. I have memories of all these like bizarre Foods. Yeah, like just just these like, snacks that you would make, and I'm, like, choking them down. So I'd be on diets, and I would lose weight sometimes. And then I would binge and I would gain gain weight back. And it just always felt like that cycle of trying to, you know, quote, unquote, control things and then falling back into these binging behaviors. And it just, it always felt like it was running alongside anxiety for me.
So I really started to struggle with anxiety and panic attacks in college in particular, I think, I think my anxiety was a little all over the place in high school, maybe not super strong, but in college, it was, it was really bad. And I had a panic attack and class one sided panic attack, like in my dorm, and binging was how I tried to just kind of soothe it, you know, eating, eating can be such a self soothing thing in a really positive pleasurable way. It can be a self soothing thing and a sort of temporary way where, okay, in this moment, I feel good. But then I would, you know, eat myself into extreme discomfort and I didn't feel good, it felt very, like self abusive. And with, you know, with anxiety, I think that I was also soothing it with binge drinking in college. So everything was kind of like, you know, in college, it can be very normalized, of course, to just drink all the time like crazy, and party and all of that stuff. And I felt like my whole existence at that time was like foot on the gas pedal, eat, eat as much as you can drink as much as you can and kind of like don't don't deal with your don't actually deal with your anxiety don't deal with your emotions. So I would say that was kind of the low point of my issues with food was in like the cop in the college time because it was also swirling around with drinking a lot, which didn't feel good, you know?
Katelyn:
Oh, yeah, I can definitely relate. So I've shared my story. Yeah, on this podcast, but I mean, my binge eating story is very lengthy as well too, and really hit its peak in college. Also, the only caveat is I was purging as well. So I was bulimic. But yes, the binge drinking swirled up in that as well as I struggled with depression and anxiety and everything and really just the coping tools to numb that out and everything. So I can definitely relate and especially the secrecy and the shame that you touched on as well too. And I know that so many people listening to this will be able to. I'm curious about your panic attack can you and if you're open to it, I would love to hear from your perspective. Your memory around this the first time you experienced this because I think that a lot of people get confused with what this is and experiencing this without even being able to name it and this looks different for everybody. For you though. What was that experience like the first time you experienced one?
Mikala:
I remember that Being in a car, which is a very scary place to have a panic attack because, you know, if you need to like escape from the situation, you have to stop the car and get out. It feels very, like you're trapped. So the way it feels to me and the way it's different from anxiety, anxiety feels like it's just this low, you know, like a pot that's about to boil over, but it hasn't yet like it's just simmering and it's it's kind of always this like ticker running under everything else that's going on. Like I feel sort of, I feel on edge, I feel kind of keyed up, but I'm still able to make my way through my day through my life. Panic attack is like that pot. It just explodes on the stove. Like I can't do anything else. I'm seized with terror. When I had the first one I had, I've read that people feel that they think that a panic attack is a heart attack, because like, your heart is pounding out of your chest. That's how it felt for me. I was in this car with friends in the backseat coming home from a trip. And so my heart racing palms sweaty, I had I was having like gut problems, like, I felt like I was like, I'm gonna have to go to the bathroom right now. Like it was like a bathroom emergency, which is terrifying and embarrassing. And it's easy to laugh at it. But it's horrible in the moment. And I said to the driver, like you have to pull over. And they're like, what, why? Because I was perfectly calm. And then all of a sudden, I was like, I have to get out of here. I feel completely trapped. I'm panicking. I'm freaking out. They pulled over. And I was just breathing really heavily. I had never had this before. I didn't know what was going on. And that one passed very, it just kind of was over. And I felt embarrassed. I'm looking around at my friends, then I'm just like, Okay, I get I guess I'm fine. And we kind of just went along on our way.
But there was another time I had one where I was at home and my dad called EMTs I went to the hospital. And that one I mean, I guess the best way I can describe it, in addition to the sort of sense of like, suddenly it hits it explodes, the pot boils over. It just feels like everything's closing in. It's kind of like tunnel vision. It's like this sense of doom, like use that you feel like you're gonna die. Like that's the not knowing what almost dying feels like, that's the best approximation I can give is like, I'm, I'm gonna pass away right now. That's how it feels. So those happened a couple of times. And I don't remember, I think after the one in the car. I called my parents and I said, I didn't have the words for it yet. I don't even think I don't even think I said like I'm struggling with anxiety or my mental health. I think I was crying and I said, Something's like wrong with me. I keep, like freaking out. I think that's what I said. I said like my, something feels weird with my mind. I'm freaking out. I'm upset randomly. And I give my parents all the credit in the world because my mom was just very gently like, okay, come home, we'll talk about it, we'll deal with it. She helped me find I went to the University of Delaware, she was like looking on websites and found the Student Health Group Counseling place. And they kind of just jumped into action with me on this. And I know anecdotally from friends, some of their parents that are in, you know, the same age range as my parents, they don't, they're not as supportive of the Mental Health conversation or they just don't understand or they would not be the ones to suggest therapy. And my parents were really like, let's go there. Let's get you whatever help you need. So that was fantastic. I still have so much like gratitude for them for that. So something went right there somewhere along the line. They were always very Yeah, me and my brother with our did you get into therapy from I did point.
Katelyn:
Amazing so and that was while you were in college as well, too. So that while you were still struggling with binge eating and binge drinking and all of these things at the same time?
Mikala:
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And so from that point, I had had a group therapy experience where I was just generally talking about anxiety. I wasn't really talking about like food stuff, eating stuff. But after I left college, I moved to Philadelphia. We were talking about this earlier having the same Philadelphia but moved there and loved it and felt like when I was speaking earlier about like the sense of rebellion or someone else's like micromanaging my food. In college no one was doing that either. But it just felt different. But when I moved to Philly to live on my own, I was like, Oh, I feel like I just feel like I have to get my shit together more somehow, like I just felt like a grown up more or something, or it was living on my own or wanting to kick my therapy into higher gear and find like a one on one therapist, analyze why I was drinking the way that I did in college, why I was binge eating. And so at that time, that's when I really, I think, took the most charge yet of wanting to talk to someone, because for me, that really is the key. Like, I'm a writer, I'm a talker. I'm here on this podcast talking, I think we have that in common that like talking through it sometimes is just what you have to do. And that's what I needed. I wanted to sit in someone's chair and say, like, here's how I eat. And here's what I'm doing to myself, and I don't get why I'm doing this and I want to figure it out if I can or, or just try to find peace somehow, like this piece that's just eluded me for all of these years.
Katelyn:
Did you find support?
Mikala:
Yeah, I did. I, when I was first in Philly, I was kind of doing like an intern, unpaid internship, working in a restaurant, all of these things didn't have, you know, it didn't have the health insurance to go to a therapist. But after some time, I did have access to that. And in the meantime, I also I was trying to figure out what could help my anxiety. What I could do on my own to try to help it. That was something new, like, what have I not done before? That might be good for me? Like, I mean, I remember thinking of so many I was like, I'm struggling so much like, what do I not have in my life that could be helpful, didn't have access to therapy yet, but wanted to. But I was like, do I need to find a spiritual practice? Do I need to get involved? Like, do I just need to go full altruism and start volunteering everyday? Like, do I need to get out of my own head or something? Like I was like, What do I need to help myself and I felt like, I kind of stumbled into just movement and exercise. I don't even remember what I first got up to. But I felt like the anxiety, it felt like it needed somewhere to go, like it needed, I needed to, like move it out of my body, you know, and that kind of just popped into my head and I was like, I'm just, I need to start exercising. Because for me, the binge eating disorder always felt like a state of like bodily dissociation. Like I just, I just felt like I had no, I didn't feel connected to my body when I ate. When I binged I felt like sort of numb in my body. And I just didn't, I just felt outside myself or something. I think that's part of anxiety too, you kind of just I just felt like I'm floating over my own life sometimes. So I didn't, you know, panic about things. But I also think that I just had no connection to my physical self. And I started just working out because I think I needed to get rid of like, energy, like the nervous or anxious energy in my body. And that really started to click in terms of helping me start to kind of get over the binging.
Katelyn:
How do you think, Well, how did that support the binge recovery?
Mikala:
Yeah, I mean, that's something I think about a lot. And I think that there was just a connection between the state of anxiety that I was in, I always wanted to feel less like I always wanted, like I said, to kind of numb things or like anesthetize things and just not feel anything. And I don't really know what clicks and I feel like I'm always gonna be kind of wondering, like, how did this happen? How did I stumble into this, but just the simple act of like, I'm going to just do like an at home workout DVD or something, and then how I felt after the feelings that I got from that, I mean, we're talking about like endorphins and stuff, obviously, but also, I just felt sort of powerful, but also calm or like accomplished or just all of these positive feelings. And it was like I felt something again, having to do with my body because the anxiety was the opposite. It was the anxiety and the binging. It was eat until you don't even like know your body or feel anything about your mind knowing exactly how to hang out.
Katelyn:
Well, I'm really curious because you already mentioned in your story that you're aware of the Restrict binge cycle, which is something we talk about a lot in the show. And, you know, restriction is a precursor to most binges. So for you being this far along in your journey in your recovery, looking back in hindsight, around that period, when you started to find exercise, what would you attribute to your binge eating at that point? What type of restriction might have been driving it? Or do you think it was purely habitual at that time and a coping tool?
Mikala:
I don't remember. Like when my binges like when the instances of binging were at their most frequent, or when I would say like my binging was at its worst. I actually don't remember restricting a lot. I think I kind of just ate. I just kind of ate whatever, when I wasn't binging. And then when I was binging, I just ate a huge volume of food. The restriction I feel like was those earlier sensations in my life when I would go on diets with my mom and stuff. But as I started to get into exercise, and this is something you know, I write and talk about a lot because I work in the exercise industry. I teach a cycling class on the weekends. And I'm a weightlifter. And I think that that industry in that world, of course, as we all know, can be very pushy about dietary stuff and restrictive stuff and get your best beach body and all the garbage that we know can be really harmful for a lot of us. And when I started getting into exercise, I read a great piece by a writer named Casey Johnston. And she had a column for a long time called Ask A Swole Woman.
So she's all about lifting. And she has a lot of really great introductory stuff about getting women into weightlifting. And she wrote this great honest piece for The Cut, I believe, saying when she got into lifting, it wasn't to be stronger. It was to be skinny, like it was to lose weight it was to have, you know, a thin or slender, but you know, quote unquote, hot, muscular body, whatever. And I think that for me, that was it. At first, I always have to be honest about this about what I grew up with, about what I was told women, quote unquote, should look like, the pressures that I felt around my body. And I think, at first with fitness, I wanted to feel better, but I also wanted to look a certain way. But as I explored this relationship with strength training more, the emotional side of it became so much more meaningful, like by leaps, leaps and bounds. And so I think there was to answer your question a little more specifically, I think when I first started getting into exercise, I don't know that I would say that it was restricting. I think that I was eating less because I wasn't binging as often. But I was, like, hyper aware of what I was eating all the time. And I think it definitely did tip into, well, I need to not eat as many calories today or I need to track my calories. I had those moments 100% . It took seven years now. I guess since I really started getting into since I really feel like I've come away from the worst of my issues with binging. It's taken that long to even really get to a place of not feeling like I need to do that or not wanting to do that it took it took a while took the first you know, couple years to just not feel like that was something I was going to do anymore And wasn't it wasn't serving me.
Katelyn:
Totally well, that's the really sneaky, nuanced piece of restriction. It's not just physical restriction. It's the mental restriction. It's the emotional restriction. It's, you know, restrictions that we're placing on ourselves on an energetic level, all of these things and so, I mean, seven years that I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I can speak from personal experience. My journey around untangling restriction and unlearning and relearning how to nourish my body from a really neutral and empowering place has, has taken a very long time. And I think for most people who grew up who grow up in diet culture, and unfortunately most of us do, there is just so many messages to untangle that really drive the restriction even when we're not really thinking about it. I also think it's a great opportunity for compassion in those instances too. But for you Mikala one thing that I'm curious about being an exercise professional, and also somebody who is really woke to diet, culture and the gym, just the danger around diet, culture messages in general, I think that there is such an interesting opportunity for a conversation here.
I actually was just talking to Amelia Hruby, who I think she will have been a guest by the time this episode is released, but we were talking about second wave shame in diet culture spaces, and especially in exercise spaces where, essentially, I think so many of us go through this. I've definitely gone through this and still go through this today. But just the shame that you might feel around knowing that you shouldn't want to change your body, but still wanting to change your body anyways. I'm curious what your experience has been, like just being in the fitness space where it's all around you. And even though you might know intellectually like, that's so quote, unquote, anti feminist or anti diet dials are all the things? How does it resonate with you? And what's your experience with it?
Mikala:
Yeah, I think that's a really profound question. And one that I'm thinking about all the time, because I, I often have to grapple with this idea that, you know, I grew up with all of these messages and all of this internalized learning about, you know, the body that you should have is like a slender model II kind of type, you know, millennials growing up in the 90s, early aughts, we kind of know that that body that was everywhere, and now getting into lifting, and I've done a powerlifting competition, and I really like feeling like strength is why I do the movement that I do physical and mental strength, just like, lifting serves me really well in terms of how I connect with my body. But there also is, you know, I cannot deny, there's still this component of what you look like, Well, you look muscular, like is the body that like, now I covet a different type of body, but I'm still coveting the look of a body. You know, I've had to think about that. Like, okay, maybe it's great that I don't look at super, super skinny bodies and want that body. But I still have looked at super, super fit, like muscle, muscle women, the kind of bodies you know, and I've wanted that kind of body. What have I changed, you know, it's still about appearance, appearances. And I think that something with the fitness space, that it's hard to talk about this because it's so easy, just with the way that we talk on social media and everything, everything is flattened. And it's so hard to have nuance, it's so hard to say. So many things can be true at once. So it's so true that so many people are in the gym, because they want to have that quote unquote beach body or look a certain way or be a super big muscle, bro. That is true, I would never in a million years deny it.
I think it's also true that a lot of people are there because they want to feel a certain way. Or they don't care about what is happening to their body. They care about all of the other things that happen with exercise. But if you're someone that cares about the non looks part of it, and the looks part of it. I like what you say about compassion because it takes a lot to unlearn this idea of you're supposed to look a certain way. And we have so many movements right now that are great about uplifting how unimportant it is that your body conform to any certain standard. But in the fitness space, of course we still have this idea of like what quote unquote fit people look like. And in my work at the gym, I feel like the the way to the way that people that teach classes or our trainers or whatever, I feel like we have this responsibility to just kind of take away the focus on certainly weight loss or looking a certain way or burning calories and all of these diet culture things that I sometimes can't believe that I still hear in classes like like all go to classes and all here like, get ready for beach season or like burn the calories or Oh, you had pizza last night. So that's why you're here in the class. If that is not what everyone is there for, and it only reinforces this notion that I think is a really poisonous one, that exercise is only for weight loss. So if we want to have a more welcoming fitness space, we have to say stuff like, you know, and when I teach a cycling class, I never talk about calories or losing weight or burning things off or, you know, negging my own body, I've had to instruct, I've, I've seen instructors do that too. We talk about strength and like, this is good for your heart, or like after this, go home and make yourself an awesome meal, like talk about, you should go eat after this not demonizing food, you know. So I think that if you work in this space, like we have so much, there's so many opportunities to make the fitness world or the gym space, less of what it is which it can be a very, like the diet-y stuff creeps in. And there's this very insidious weight loss stuff, and I don't, I don't have a problem with anyone who wants that if that's what they want. But we can't pretend we can't assume that everyone is there for that. I think that's really damaging, because you might have people in your class, dealing with eating disorders recovering from things that simply just don't want to hear it. They don't want to be reminded of like, oh, I ate pizza. And that's allegedly bad. You know, it's just, it's so it's so a product of like, a different time. You know, and I think we have to, we have to try to shift it.
Katelyn:
Totally. Yeah, I mean, I think that is the biggest challenge that kind of what we were talking about with your mom. And for so many parents in general, and grandparents, I mean, this message has been passed down from generation to generation, and it shows up in our families and our workplaces, on TV, like all of the places that we are exposed to in life. There is this reoccurring theme, and this message that you're worth is based on your body size, or your looks or your value is, you know, around your, your looks as a woman, which honestly, even as I'm saying that out loud, like, there are some truth in that. And that's the thing that's so like, nuanced and problematic as well. Like, we can't sit here in this conversation and pretend that that isn't true, because that, like, that just wouldn't be the truth. Like there is definitely privilege in body types and and appearances and all of these things. And I think what you're talking about in collectively, shifting the conversation, and especially in your space, people will influence to really shift that conversation. And because instructors have influence people on social media have influence. Parents have influence, you know, if you're in an influential position, that's your responsibility to take care of yourself first and decide what your beliefs are around this. So that you can show up and serve more powerfully. And that's not to, that's not to, like throw anybody under the bus. Because I think that there's so much to unpack there. And some people just don't have the bandwidth to go there. But it is something to just consider in this conversation as well to what your personal responsibility is, right? Wherever you have influence and in your life. What we're we even talking about before? Influence and just workout spaces, and
Mikala:
I feel like it's a good sign when you lose track of the conversation because you've just been going off in different areas. I hope I like to think it's a good sign or else maybe I just have rambled too much.
Katelyn:
Well, I do have a conversation about where you're at right now in your life. And I'd love to hear just an example and just a peek into your relationship with your body and food and yourself right now and then also, where you struggle right now? And how you support yourself when you do find yourself in a negative body image day or just a mental health struggle. What does your life look like today?
Mikala:
Yeah, I think that I feel that I'm in a very good place in terms of having that connection with my body like we were talking about, like I feel, I feel like I kind of have this. I'm in just this sort of harmonious dance with my own body where I didn't use to feel these things. And I don't think anyone has to feel these things. I think for me, I like feeling like I've just gotten to the point where I know like Oh, I'm hungry, I'm hungry, and I'm gonna honor that, or No, I know that I'm not hungry. I don't, I don't need to eat any more, that might be a binge trigger kind of thing. For me, I feel like I know the difference at this point. Or, I know if I push too hard with my workouts or I know if you know what I haven't moved very much in the past couple days, I feel like I need to go get a workout in my sleep. I know when I I just know that I'm the kind of person that needs almost nine hours of sleep. It is like truly grandma sleep levels over here for me, but I'm into it at this point in my life. So I like feeling like I communicate with my body. Well, I think at this point in my life, I feel very lucky to have that. So that feels really good and that makes me feel mentally, really good. And I also think of the way that I use movement as a tool. When I am feeling low or down. During the pandemic for me, it was just walking, because you know, I wasn't in the gym. And I don't think exercise is just the exercise you do in the gym. I was just going on walks all the time, I was walking the soles of my shoes down. And there was just something very meditative in that. And I liked recognizing that, okay, when I'm having when I'm just feeling down, I can go do that. I even joked with my fiance, like, you know how people will say like, I'm sorry for what I said when I was hungry. Like, I joke to him, like, I'm sorry for what I said when I hadn't gone on a walk yet.
Katelyn:
Oh my god I literally do the same thing.
Mikala:
Yeah, well, I just have to get out of here. Yep.
Katelyn:
A walk is my tool. Also, like, we will be mid argument. and I'm just like, I have to go.
Mikala:
Yeah, I just have to go around and then I will return to you with a brain that can handle this. And we'll be good. Yeah. And, you know, I joke about it, because it's funny. It's like how simple are we as creatures, like just go for a walk, you'll probably feel 1000 times better. But that's, that's a tool like, I'm so glad I know that about myself. So I feel very strong, sort of in general, in terms of how, how connected I am to my body. But the other side of that coin is, I feel like I can be hyper attuned to it, I can be obsessive about it. I write about this, and I try to write honestly, and I know that it's hard for me to say and it's maybe hard to hear. But there are so many times where I am, I am stuck in this cycle of okay, my body changed several years ago. I looked different than I did several years ago, I got into lifting that changed my body. I wasn't binge eating anymore, that changed my body. I'm someone who lost quite a bit of weight and all of the associated advantages and privileges that come with that. It's very easy to get caught up in I want to keep looking this way. And what we were talking about with it's dishonest to suggest that that doesn't affect us. I agree with that. And I also hate it like I don't want to, I don't want to think about what my body looks like, all the time. And I don't think about it all the time but I think about it enough that like I wish I didn't you know. And I've only had the body that I live in now, for a handful of years. I grew up internalizing all kinds of messages about the body I had for the first you know, 20 something years of my life. And I struggle a lot with that. Still, I struggle a lot with falling back into old habits with food because they scare me. I don't like how I felt when I was binging. And I try to have compassion for myself. Like if I binge, I binge like we it's okay, like, we'll, we'll figure out why. Or we'll get back on track or we'll forgive ourselves and there's nothing wrong with me. It's just something that might happen. But I think I have a lot of fear of the lowest point in my life, with regard to how I ate, it makes it easy to be afraid of food, sometimes. That still does happen to me. So I can't say that I'm fully 100% like recovered and great around food anymore. I'm not that's why I write the things that I write to talk about how complicated it is and how I struggle. And when I do struggle, I have a great therapist talk to her about this stuff all the time to this day. But I think the best thing for me to do is actually to take a break from exercising that's more than a walk like I don't know that if I'm feeling really in my head about my body I should go to the gym and be like lifting weights in front of a mirror. You know, I think sometimes it's like, just don't get out in nature. Do it because it just feels good for your brain, you're not like looking at yourself. Sometimes that can be troublesome.
And I also feel like I have to find a time to eat a meal that I really want and that I love. But that isn't, but that feels like luxurious to me, like I have to, I want to eat like, an extra special meal out of my house and like enjoy it out at a restaurant or something to almost like remind myself that I can eat that way without binging like that, that is something that I've really had to practice doing. And it's so, it's so hard to talk about this because I think if you've never, if you've never experienced it, I know that you understand, I know your listeners understand, but sometimes I'm like, you know, damn, if you've never had issues with food, this must sound wild. Because it's like, it's just food, it's just a piece of pizza, it's just whatever. But when you have been messed up about it in certain ways, it's just a lot of work that you have to recognize and try to have compassion for yourself, like we said, but it's still there. You know, it's, it is still very much there. And so I'm thinking all the time about like, what do I need? How do I take care of myself? I feel like I'm in a good place with being aware of it, being aware of when this happens, or when I feel this, and it's not all the time, by any stretch. It's you know, every so often I'll have a bad day, get too in my head about my body, feel like I'm sliding into like an obsession or like a or I want to binge and I don't know why. It's not all the time. But when it happens, it's easy to feel shamed about it, to feel shameful about it.
Katelyn:
You know, it's hearing you say this is just, man, it's, it's, like, so cathartic for me to hear. Because I feel so seen and you saying all of this. And I just I think that if you have you ever struggled with binge eating specifically, it's hard to really understand on this level, because this is almost like, you know, wanting to go back to a bad boyfriend or a bad partner in some way. Just like the if you've struggled with binge eating for a really long time, like the both of us have, I'll speak for myself it it is like there are it is relearning. Like it is relearning how to be in a relationship with yourself and like how to live essentially because it does it all speak for myself. Like I said, like, yeah, it disconnected me from my body, you know, like completely, I could never tell what just a gentle hunger felt like or gentle fullness. It was so extreme. It was so secretive, there was so much shame.
You know, it never really felt like I was in my body. I always felt like I was out of my body doing this to myself almost like a drug experience. And I think there's a lot of parallels with drinking, like you mentioned, as well, too. I have, I can definitely see that in my own story as well. But yeah, where you're at right now, I can also relate to so many things that you're saying there are definitely self awareness has been such a great tool for me too. And there are so many times where I'll sit and I'll feel triggered in some way or something will happen and I'm just like, oh my god, like, I just want to escape. Like, I could just go back, I could just do it. Like, yeah, I could just retreat and nobody would know, you know, I would just have this secret. And you know, it's, it's just not worth it to me at this point. And I'm grateful I have a lot of support around that. And I'm far enough along to where it just doesn't really feel that attractive anymore, but especially in the beginning stages of recovery it was very, very seductive.
Mikala:
Yeah, absolutely. And like what you said about it being a secret that's just sort of ringing in my ears too. Because there's something about it that feels like I get to have this like I'm going to choose to have this secret and it's mine and no one can touch it or no one can see it.
Katelyn:
Nobody has to understand it either. Like you don't have to explain yourself to anybody like it's just yours.
Mikala:
Exactly. And you know during the past couple years of the pandemic. You know, I've read so many things about the instances of binge eating disorder, like self reported way up eating disorders all over the map way up. Of course, I'm just such, it's been such a terrible time, perfect conditions for these things to really rear their heads. But with me with binges, over the course of the pandemic, I felt like there were times where we're sitting around, you know, in the early days, and we're like drinking a beer at three o'clock, because it's like, nothing feels real. And everybody's just in a weird, scary moment. And that was what we were doing here in my apartment. Like, I guess we'll just watch Netflix and have a drink. And then it would turn into I'm drinking more than I like to, but we're certainly do at this point in my life, and I'm eating more, and I'm binging now. And it just went back. It felt like, well, nothing feels normal right now. So I'm not going to be my normal self either. And it felt like weirdly exciting at first. And that made me think like, have I just not been? Like, what is my normal self? You know, like, it really was existential, you know, like, do is do I actually want to be eating this way? All the time? And I'm not. Yeah. And this is, this is the time to do it. I mean, in the end, it was pretty clear. No, that was not what felt good for me. But it just through it just it goes to show you, I guess that just when there are shifts in your life, it just reverberates everywhere. I think if you struggled with food, or drinking or anything, when things are crazy around you, it can just kick you back into that place in like an instant.
Katelyn:
True. Well, and also, I think I'm so glad that you brought that up, because it just makes me think I'm, I'm so over this concept of normal eating. Yeah. What is that? And also, it's just like saying, oh, yeah, you're in a normal relationship. What is that? You know, they're absolutely, there's so much judgment around that. And the way that I, the way that I really like to describe relationships with food is just like our relationships with a partner that we have in our life. And I know you're about to get married, and I'm, I'm married. And I will tell you first and foremost, I love my husband, we've got a great relationship. And there are highs and there are lows, and there's a lot of just like middle ground day to day, like boredom to laughter to tears. Like it's all you know, it's, it's, it is not it's steady, but it's like normal, you know what I mean? Like, exactly, but I think it's so beautiful in that way. And I think that, for the most part, like 70% of the time, things are really good. But yeah, for the rest of the time, like there is like the nuances of the highs and the lows that can feel really extreme sometimes. And I think it's important for us to give ourselves grace in our relationships with our mental health and our relationships with food and our bodies and all these other areas of life to really extend compassion for the lack of normalcy and just opportunity to let it evolve and let it ebb and flow and let it be messy sometimes, and also, to get curious when it is messy. Exactly.
Mikala:
I love that you say this, because I think about this a lot. And I think that we're in this moment where we are. You know, as a culture, I think we're calling out a lot of things that really need need to be we're talking about, like, look at how a culture that values then this above all else has harmed us look at what these crazy diets are, or eating or like diet products or things we ate or what we tried to do when we were in high school or college or what our moms did, like, look at how insane This is. Look at how much it can just mess with all of our lives. I think that's, of course, so necessary and positive. I also think it makes us feel like we're, it seems like we're scrambling to try to try to point to some kind of normal try to find that sort of Northstar. We know that we've been given these messages about foods that are so disordered, but sometimes I'm thinking well what's ordered though, right? Like is there it cannot be the same for everyone. You know, and I think that we can say that you find a peaceful relationship with food that doesn't make You feel distressed and serves all of your health needs, lifestyle needs, you know, food satisfaction needs all of it. And that might that's normal for you, it just might look different for someone else. So I feel like we are pointing to a lot of things that we feel are problematic with food. But I often am kind of like I don't, I don't think we're going to have one definition of what's non problematic that we can map on to everyone's lives. It's just too complex. Our bodies are too complex. I agree. We have general things we know about food. And I think that we can follow some basic ideas, but it's just going to be more complicated system, like that exists is like what we do with our bodies and how we feel about them, and how things, how things, how our bodies respond to things.
Katelyn:
I totally agree. Well, so I also want to invite in before we wrap up. I just want to give everybody some hope, kind of where we're taking this conversation too. Because I'm sure there are probably some people listening to us right now who are like, well, if I'm never gonna feel normal, then like, what's the point of even trying, you know, I certainly would have been there if I had heard something like this. And so I just, if you are hearing this, and you are struggling with disordered eating or eating disorder, in some capacity, I will just say I'd love your take on this to Mikala, but from where my personal take my relationship with food is much more peaceful, and neutral, absolutely, and non obsessive and uncomplicated. I would say like, 85% of the time, maybe 90% of the time, it's just, it's something that helps me live my life and something that I enjoy my life by like, it's, you know, it's just not something that I think about as often now. And there are some moments where it does feel a little bit more alert, or obsessive or just tough, you know, just like any other relationship, but from where I was when I was binge eating. I don't. I don't love this expression. But it is kind of nine day like it feels like recovering from a drug obsession almost. So it's not perfect, but it is way, way farther along than it was before. So for anybody who's struggling, that's my two cents on why I would encourage you to keep going in your journey and to seek support and tools and resources that are aligned with your values and your mission for your own personal empowerment and your body image journey. What would you say about that Mikala?
Mikala:
Yeah, agreed. I think that, in talking about all of the complications, and the things that are still a struggle, I absolutely want to be clear that I I agree with you, it's, I have so much more harmony with my body and my brain than I did before. And going through therapy and finding joyful movement or finding, you know, I like to cook for myself, or I've discovered new foods that I like, and I don't fear food, like I used to, I have moments and I don't want to overstate those. It's like you said but also just any kind of struggles that I have now. I feel like I have discovered tools to cope, or I or I have that self awareness that we mentioned. And that's something that in, you know, going on the journey to try to find this personal wellness wellness for myself, I developed those tools. And I think other people will too. I think you just gather these things along the way where, oh, this works for me or this feels great. And you keep them and you build them into your life and they bring you to a place of that greater bodily harmony. And so I absolutely have found that I think that I just want anyone that's listening to keep that in mind first and foremost. But also, if along the way you still struggle, like that's okay too, of course, but overall, I have been able, there absolutely is a way to come to a place of peace with your body and that normalcy I was talking about. You know, it's not that, oh, you'll never find something normal. I think we find things that are normal for us. I think that there just isn't, it doesn't have to be one defined thing. You can find your own solid relationship with your body food movement, all of it. I think it's yeah, it's very personal. So that's where I am right now. And that is, it feels like a sigh of relief. After a long time of trying to sort of keep my head above water. I feel like I'm kind of not flailing anymore, for sure.
Katelyn:
Well, I am so appreciative of you sharing your truth. And I'm just, I'm so excited that you're at this place in your own journey, and that you are willing to be so vulnerable in this community, and also just in the world, too. I know that you talk about this a lot in your own personal work. So thank you, and where can everybody get into your community and all of the things that you do?
Mikala:
Yeah, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you for having me. I could talk to you for another three hours, I'm sure. And not that you would want to have me for that long.
Katelyn:
I would actually.
Mikala:
I don't know if everybody else would want to hear it.
Katelyn:
Yeah, they would.
Mikala:
I publish a newsletter called Body Type that's on substack. So it's bodytype.substack.com. And that also has Instagram. Same thing @_bodytype. And I have a personal Twitter, which is @notjameson. So my last name, except j a m e s o n. So not Jameson is my Twitter. But body type has all of that stuff. That's my main gig these days.
Katelyn:
Love. That's amazing. Thank you so much. We'll link it in the show notes to keep it easy for everybody. I so appreciate you. Thanks for your time today.
Mikala:
Thank you, Katelyn. So much.
