Episode 109: Taking Up Space with Serena Nangia
Episode 109: Taking Up Space with Serena Nangia
In this episode we sit down with....Serena Nangia.
Serena Nangia (she/her) is a Body Activist and long-time advocate for eating disorder recovery. Serena has spent close to a decade building expertise on the way body image, media, and eating disorders affect people’s daily lives, as well as how Fatphobia and weight stigma create issues of access and discrimination systemically and interpersonally. Serena is a self-identifying Fat person and knows first-hand the difficulties that under-represented folks face in getting access to treatment and equitable healthcare. In order to combat the fatphobic and archaic systems preventing folks from getting the care they need, she became deeply involved in the eating disorder community and actively works to elevate diverse voices of People of Color and Fat people. Serena’s inspiration comes from her sister, Ellen, who struggled with an eating disorder for over a decade and is now in long-term recovery.
In this conversation we talk about:
Serena’s personal body image story- clothing based on how people interpreted her body at a young age
Serena’s liberating experience of claiming the description of being a fat person
Practical steps to begin dismantling fat phobia in your life
Redefining our general perception of health and it's current attachment to the patriarchy
Activism vs advocacy and where to begin your journey
Connect with our guest...
Resources we mention in this episode…
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TRANSCRIPTION Episode 109: Taking Up Space with Serena Nangia
Katelyn:
All right, Serena Nangia Hi. Welcome to the show.
Serena:
Hello, I'm so excited.
Katelyn:
I am so excited to have this conversation. Let's do this. Let's just dive in. And the first question that we ask everyone is your first body awareness moment? So can you just paint the picture of what that looks like for you that moment where you realized, I'm in a body? Apparently, this means something in the world that I'm living in? What does that look like? And also, how did that shape your relationship with food in your body moving forward? Just get on this soapbox and share your story?
Serena:
Yeah, oh, my gosh, I am so thankful to be asked this question. Because I normally am talking about a lot of other people's stories. And today I get to share my own. I am sure that after we record this, I will think of another very pivotal moment earlier in my life. But the first moment that I remember, being in a body and kind of truly judging it, or having it be judged, is so it's the summer before fourth grade, my mom takes me and my siblings to Old Navy, and we're getting our first day of school outfits. I chose this blue turtleneck top, but it's sleeveless. And my body is changing. I am in fourth grade. And I don't think I quite hit puberty yet. But I was gaining weight as you do as you get older and grow. And my breasts had started to either develop or they were just you know, like, growing with my fat, like, gained weight and fat. And so you could kind of with this talk because it was tighter than what I had worn in the past. But if I had chosen what I felt comfortable in, my mom was like, well, it might be time to get a bra. And I don't know, I don't even remember how I felt around that I remember like, why, like, I feel comfortable in this top. As is. But it's like this. Realizing now like we are brought up in a very sexualized society, especially for young women, even for girls. And so you know, it's, I think anytime you get your first bra, or find out that you need to wear your first bra or whatever, you are told that you need to wear it even though I'm 20, almost 24 now and I don't wear a bra like most of the time. But back then you just like, kind of had to start wearing bras and like you couldn't, you know, it was it's, I still don't quite understand why that exists. But that was my first body awareness moment. I'm like, Oh, I have to wear a bra now. Because not because of how I feel about my body. But because of how other people will see my body,
Katelyn:
I still feel you. The bra and boob conversation in general is always so interesting to me, we've had quite a few guests share similar first body awareness stories around breast development. And I think you hit the nail on the head, just how it's sexualized in our culture and specific to women and the emotions that come up around that. I remember, I felt really similar to when it was pointed out that I was developing breasts in general. And that was something to pay attention to. And that that was a part of the attention that was brought on to women. And so I really hear you and I'm curious how your moments translated into the next chapters of your body image story. What did you do with that information? How did you internalize it? Did you notice it shifting anything else in terms of your relationship with your body and food?
Serena:
Yeah, so I think In general, I just became a lot more self conscious, not as a direct result, necessarily of that moment, but just as a direct result of, like, puberty starting growing up, like going into middle school. And, you know, like, I have this very vivid memory, because it was a memory where I judged myself, I don't remember what age it was, must have been in middle school sometime. And I was rewatching a video of like, our fifth grade graduation, in which I was wearing a hat that was not stylish and orange pants. And I was completely happy. Like, you know, fifth grade me was, I mean, I was dealing with some deep emotional stuff. But like, as far as my body was concerned, I was wearing clothes I wanted to wear I mean, like, I had had that one moment and had that specific shirt that I had, I was told I was supposed to wear a bra with and like, I just tended to not wear that shirt anymore. So in that way, I suppose I had started deciding what clothing I was going to wear based on how people interpret it, and interpreted on my body. But, like, I was in fifth grade, it seemed like everything was okay, I in general felt fine. And then this memory of me in middle school, looking back and watching that video and being like, What the hell was I wearing? Like, who do I think I was? And just like being so judgmental of myself. I went on to, like, in sixth grade, we had gym class for the first time where we changed into shorts. And I think probably around seventh grade, like, I started, my friend started shaving their legs. And that was a huge body image moment from where it was, you know, I'm half Indian, so I have a lot of dark hair. And my classmates who had thinner and lighter hair than me had started shaving. And I was like, Oh, what is this about? And it's like these things. I didn't think of these things. They were brought to my consciousness by other people and by society. So in that way, I guess, you know, I started shaving my legs, and I started wearing clothes that I thought would be a little bit more attractive or sexier to the guys in my grade. And some of that was like, confidence building. And some of it was wearing something that's uncomfortable for me. But I think in general, I was I had a I have a very interesting relationship between my mind and body, which has developed so much, but I'm still struggling with it at that point. My body image has not not ever been like, treacherous. I, though I work in the eating disorder field, and I'm surrounded by the eating disorders and body image issues. I didn't ever develop an eating disorder. Though my younger sister did, which is why I got into all of this. But I did start to develop I developed large breasts very quickly and they kept growing through all of middle school and beginning of high school and then they eventually stopped and I also gained weight and I became you know, I look back on my body and I remember it being always larger than my peers but I feel like in many ways it wasn't it was just my perception of my own body. Looking back on pictures I wasn't that much bigger than my peers but I certainly started becoming you know more curvy and I identify as fat now so I don't mind calling myself fat like I think by the time I graduated high school, I look basically very similar to how I look now. I'm fat. I didn't know what to do with it, I felt I found people who were similar to me and who were different you know, who are also larger and I felt very comfortable with them. And I certainly judged my body. But um, you know, in general I'd say my relationship with food has been balanced ish. I think anytime, you know, I've been through traumas and hardships in life, and anytime that happens a lot of the time are, those things are reflected in how we interact with food. So I think, though I'd never developed a full blown eating disorder or, but I still explain, I still dabbled, we could say in disordered eating. Whether it was like as a fat person in general, not feeling comfortable eating in front of other people, I'd still eat like, a good, a normal, whatever normal means, amount of food and like about semi balanced, you know, I was a teenager's like, kind of what I wanted. But I might not necessarily eat in front of other people. I would feel uncomfortable, like if I had eaten a certain amount in front of people, and then was still hungry. I might like, wait until later that day when I was alone to eat, too. And I was full. So it wasn't like I was binge eating, but I was afraid to eat more than what was like, quote, unquote, acceptable, especially as someone in a fat body because fat people are judged very quickly, in my opinion, seen as like, if they eat more than what is support you're like supposed to eat or whatever that you're seen as, like, very gluttonous. Like, of course, fat people, like a fat person is eating a lot. So all of the immune, all of those things were happening in my mind junior senior year of high school, and I had never dated in high school. So that affected my self image in general. And I found a club. Luckily, that was about pure education about body image issues and eating disorders, and was able to join that club at high school and start learning about these things. But I didn't truly understand where my place in it as a fat person was until I found out about fatphobia. So that's a good overview. I think of my first 18 years of life.
Katelyn:
So interesting. There's so many, there's so many amazing themes happening in your story that I'm just like, visualizing, going all around. And it sounds like you're highly perceptive, it sounds like you first of all you have it sounds like you've got this fierce inner confidence, wear intuitively, and I think so, I think most of us are born this way. It's just like, I'm going to do my thing. Like, I'm going to wear the hat, I'm going to wear the outfit, until someone shakes your world and says, Actually, that's not what we're doing here. That's not, that's not what you wear. That's not how you do body hair, or don't do body hair. That's not what you eat. It's in the body size that you're in. And it's so interesting to witness this in your story and see how this shows up in so many stories, mine included, where we learn this pleasing all the time, how to please everyone else, and put everyone else's opinions first before ourselves. Just to kind of keep things peaceful, especially when there is all of the other trauma and emotions happening as well, too. It's like when that's happening. Our mind is like, Don't rock the boat. We can't take anymore. Let's keep the peace as much as possible. I'll just live my life the way everybody else wants me to live it so that I don't have to get into any other of the murky waters or uncomfortable territory. Does that feel accurate for you?
Serena:
Just my gosh, you hit the nail on the head. I'm legitimately right now, like I said, I'm almost 24. So I'm still very young, very much unpacking all of this. And it's, I am working with a coach right now. And she like that's what we're working on right now is like learning how not like how to just put myself first. And yeah, I'm the older sister of four. So my mom was sick and my dad was working so I definitely like keeping the peace was my thing like me and I never thought about it in that I just quit. We accepted those things and rules that were told to me. But that makes complete sense. Like, it's easier to just accept rules that other people give you then, like, if you don't have the mental capacity to be like, Why am I accepting this or if you're not taught to even challenge those things. When you're a child, you're like, my mom is sick. My siblings need help with their homework. And I'm just going to shave my legs like, don't worry about it, I'll just eat later. Like, I'm not even going to worry about feeling bad right now. Because I'll just, you know, when I have my time, which was at night, usually, after everybody went to bed, I would like, I still to this day, don't think that I was binge eating, I think I was just eating because I was hungry. And I just, you know, but it was at nighttime, which is something that a lot of binge eaters do and, and but yeah, like just finding the space for me to be safe in my body. And process those things like, simply didn't exist for a very long time until I think, like this year.
Katelyn:
And that's awesome that you're working with a coach, too. And one of the things that really stood out and your story also is what I want to ask you more about is discovering fatphobia. And discovering that this actually exists, there's a name for it. There's research and cultural context and evidence beyond lived experience that supports learning more about this and seeking out intentional communities that foster safer spaces, braver spaces, advocacy work, all the things which you're doing now. So what was that moment like for you, Serena, when you recognized that this was actually something that you could learn more about and, and had a name, the shame that you were experiencing in your body, and that you were recognizing in our culture in general, that it actually had a name? What was that, like? And how did you come about that?
Serena:
You know, I think a lot of people talk about the moment that they get a diagnosis for a mental health illness or a mental illness or that sort of thing and how liberating it is. Or, you know, like a mental, like a health issue. And you're like, oh, I have this like, that's why I've been feeling this way. And it was so liberating. I just got when you were talking about that moment and asked me about I just got like, a burst of joy and like sunlight inside me because I, you know, since seven, no since 15, I guess. But even before I found out, my younger sister had an eating disorder. I had started learning about eating disorders, because I was really fascinated by this. Both my parents are healthcare practitioners. I was experiencing the shame that I didn't understand bodies, I knew that my, like, I knew what eating disorders were, I knew that people and my friends and you know, people at school were, didn't feel comfortable in their bodies, even more than I did no matter like that I was larger than them. And I'd been in the space from like, 15 through, let's say, 22. So like, seven years, I was, I founded a club at my college, I got involved in body image stuff and eating disorders. And I still, like I said, still hadn't found my place in it, because part of my mission, originally and still now is that I found out my younger sister had an eating disorder and I want to help people like her. But I found my place not only as a support system for somebody who had and is in recovery from an eating disorder, but also about fatphobia. So the first moment that this was exposed to me and I didn't quite get it yet, was I went to a conference and eating sort of conference and a speaker Ivy Felicia, who I actually had on my podcast a few months ago, it really came full circle. She is a black fat woman and she was talking about how fat thin people or people who are not fat and thin white people specifically how harmful it can be to post photos of as a thin person, like kind of scrunching down and showing rolls of your belly, as if to say, Oh, I have rolls too. Oh, like we are the same. And then me as a fat person, who also hadn't quite recognized that I was fat yet, like, I couldn't, I hadn't found my place. But I knew that I was larger, and I just called myself curvy, or whatever. And that was helpful at the time. But I had started doing online activism and posting on social media, and was confronted by this idea, Am I doing something harmful? That is creating like an issue. So now I look back. And now and then I have rolls of fat on my body that just exist when I'm standing up, or like when I'm sitting like a normal person, I don't have to scrunch down to create rolls. So in that way, I am just simply sharing what my body looks like. And it's not actually harmful in the way that I thought. But it was the first time that somebody challenged me and was like, because I knew a lot of people I knew, models who were doing that like plus size models, and that they didn't have rolls when they stood up straight and that sort of thing. And the reason that they had described it was or Ivy had described it was harmful is because, like, it's great that you are accepting your body in all positions. And you know, at that point, when you're scrunched up, you have rolls and you love yourself, but not everybody has the ability to stand up straight and not have rolls. And because as fat people we go into the world with these rolls, this fat on our body that we cannot change by, you know, a movement that we, we experienced different accessibility because of it. So that was my first introduction. And I didn't, I don't think I even registered the word fatphobia at that point. But that's my first introduction to it. And I'm so thankful for it, because it primed me for two years later, we invited another activist and educator Isy Abraham-Raveson, who is based in Philly. And she did a workshop for my club on campus, about fatphobia. And this was I had started reading and I had started like being exposed to social media between Ivy’s presentation and Isy's presentation. And over those two years, I had been reading a lot and like I, you know, self reflection and analysis, as you said, I'm a very perceptive and also just like neurotic person, in good ways, often, but, um, those two years had led me to this workshop where I solidified like, Damn, I'm a part of this community, and like, I get to be a part of this community. And I get to call myself fat, which like, for a lot of people is seen as an insult. But for me, and I talk about this a lot. For me, calling myself fat, and finding out about fat phobia and finding out that this is shame that a lot of my peers are experiencing, and that it's not just a self image, body image issue, but a larger systemic issue. And that I had a community that was working against it. All of that created this. Like, knowing and identity that I had already had, but didn't, couldn't name. And like, having a diagnosis like depression, and knowing and being able to name something for me, it was powerful, because once you know what something is, it's easier to counteract it and to start solving a problem. So for me, having been an advocate for eating sort of recovery for so long as an activist in my own right. All this time, trying to help raise awareness about Eating disorders like, Guys, this is a thing like 30 million people in the US have one. I found this other platform and issue on a fat phobia and weight stigma that was so, so closely related to my personal experiences in a way that eating disorders weren't exactly. And finding out that fat phobia and weight stigma are a huge cause of eating disorders systemically. You know, they might not have direct research yet, but people who they do have research that people who experience weight stigma are more likely to develop eating disorders, because they are trying to reach what is potentially unreachable for them, which is like a thin body. So I've never been able to verbalize all of this. And I so appreciate the space too, because it's exciting.
Katelyn:
It's so exciting. I am just here witnessing your truth. And I see this is so liberating. Just being on the receiving end of your story and just holding space for you right now. Because this is, this is so freeing, I can just feel the freedom in your voice. And I'm also curious as you are coming into this liberation, this body liberation, and this new community, and this new level of activism and all of the things. Were there any challenges that came up in reclaiming? Or not even reclaiming, but just claiming the description of being a fat person and a fat body? Was there anything that you noticed that kind of pushed the boundaries or rocked the boat as you were becoming more comfortable with? That version of your identity? Because it sounds like you're so multifaceted and complex and certainly not attached to this one singular identity? It sounds like it's one part of it. So what came up for you if anything around that?
Serena:
No, it was, it was really cool. I think a lot of my life primed to me to accept this identity and part of myself because it was something I was already experiencing, and just got to name. So very quickly, I was able to take this on. I don't know if I started calling myself that and like fat in front of other people. Until I started publicly speaking. Maybe less than a year later, but I surround myself with people who want to listen to me, and don't judge me so. And it also just was kind of a known fact. Like, I'm fat. It wasn't like a big like, it wasn't, it was a big thing for me, because I got to find this liberation. But it was just me naming the body that I exist in. And I think about it as I relate to my parents who are both in larger bodies, and fat bodies, they would, you know, they've gotten to that point with me. I was honestly never met with which I know some people are, oh, you're not fat. Like, that wasn't something that happened to me because I so solidly was like, This is who I am and people, you know, I surround myself with people who trust me like you don't go into a room as a black person and say, I'm not black. I'm white presenting, but like, you don't go into a room as a black person. Say I'm not black like, you're obviously black. Same as a fat person. Like you walk into your room, you're like, obviously, you're fat. And in the same way that they're like, different you know, everything is a spectrum. fatness is a spectrum. I'm a small to medium size, fat person, which means it's all part of a very complicated structure, but which is great because these things are complex, and we should keep them complex because you can't simplify something that is complex, but You know, my identifying as a small to mid fat person is me saying, I have access, I can sometimes find clothes at stores, I can sit in most chairs, I can fit technically on an airplane, like on an airplane chair, though often I now have to like, get an extender. And then like, it gets worse and, like accessibility wise. As you get larger as you become like a larger fat person, or super fat person, which are terms created by a person called ash, I don't remember their last name. Um within the first year or two, I got to really claim this, I started publicly speaking, I started taking up space. And along these lines, I mean, in college, I started understanding what it means to be biracial and what it means to be a white presenting person. And then I had a reckoning of sorts, where I was so proudly and amazingly taking up space and using my voice. And then in June 2020, when the protests over George Floyd's more murder happened, as many other non black people did that I decided to, first of all, I, you know, stepped in and stepped up and tried to support and elevate folks, but at the same time, I very much took a step back from taking up space. And that was just kind of a reminder to me in a way that I'm not sure it was completely positive, and how I, like started sending messages to myself. In that, like, I had, I have been, for the past two years, three years, figuring out where I stand as a small fat person who is white presenting with multiple identities, and I'm clear, and I have trauma, and you know, I have a lot of different things that go into who I am. So, with all of that being said where am I allowed to, but where should I take up space? Where should I say no to opportunities and pass them along? Or, or just give, like, take a step back and allow other people to take up that space? And where should I step in, and allow myself to use my voice and to talk about the things that matter and talk about my experiences? So that has been and continues to be something? And I I think it was I mean, in general, I think it was a completely okay reaction, like what I ended up doing was just not speaking out. Or not taking up as much space, I was still speaking up, but like not taking up as much space as a speaker for a while, and just letting other people take up space. And while that I think was a reasonable and probably good reaction, I also kind of dim my light for other people. Or, like I just was like, oh, maybe instead of not taking up some space and leaving some space for others, I just like stopped taking up space. And that really impacted like, my own self image and valuing of myself.
Katelyn:
How so?
Serena:
I'm just thinking of a conversation I had with a mentor in November. So we're in March now it's not even that long. And I recently started doing more of these speaking gigs like I reached out to you and I've reached out to other people but that was after the fact of having this conversation with my mentor who is also a fat white woman in the space but she's a bit older. So she's been here and kind of figured it out a little bit more. Of course we're always working on how to take up space, but she was like, you know, there's enough room for all of us like you are doing things other people aren't doing, you can speak about things other people aren't speaking about. And I just see so many amazing black fat women, POC women who, you know, like just people who represent other identities, who I believe are, or I used to believe that are more deserving of the spotlight. And I, because and I still believe like, oh, a lot of my platform, and my activism is elevating voices that haven't been heard, or that sort of thing. But what I came to the realization after this conversation with my mentor who verbally gave me permission to take up space, which is, if you've ever been verbally told, like you can do this, like you, it's great that you are reflecting, and you can take up space, if you'd like to, and you're ready to I also came to the realization of a completely like, there's a lot of white supremacy ingrained in, in my brain that I'm constantly working against. And one of those things was, I was seeing sort of this staircase of fat activists, and I was seeing like, Okay, if I take up space, and essentially take a step forward, right, I bring, I will lend a hand out and bring people up, instead of stepping off the staircase completely. But that is actually, I was reflecting. And I was like, Oh, this is actually like a white supremacist thought, right? That I as someone who represents us white, like, I'm white, for all intents and purposes, and feel the need, that I need to pull someone up, definitely wants to elevate other people. But then I started thinking about the people who I admire and the people who have pulled me up and created the space for me. And I look up the staircase, and I see a ton of black fat women, and a ton of queer people and a ton of, you know, white women who are fat and like all these people who pulled me up, and who created the space for me. So who am I to say that? You know, I'm the only one who, like, it's so complicated, right? It's the staircase of how can we all move forward together, but just recognizing, honestly, recognizing that fact. And like, kind of, now I constantly am thinking, who is who has like, supported me and pulled me up and created this space for me. And, like, just acknowledging that, and that's why I say people's names when I refer to their presentations that made an impact in my life, or at facts that I learned from people's presentations or books, because that is how you consistently elevate other people and acknowledge how they had an impact on your story and elevated you. And I think I'm hoping and I would love to engage with anyone who has other thoughts and stuff, but that's where I'm at currently.
Katelyn:
And I love that I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead. Because that was just an ongoing thing. Well, I am just, it's so powerful. I so appreciate your vulnerability in how you navigated the past couple of years for yourself in during this time where there is it's just a very heated time and it needs to be and it also is a time where I mean, you are not alone at all. I think that so many people have experienced self censorship in one way or another, whether you have a public platform or not. And it's just really empowering to hear how you've intentionally navigated that through recognizing your self censorship, why you are censoring yourself seeking out support to bring you up in a really intelligent way. And also, I love what you shared about how you've created one tool to help change the conversation and how you have chosen to make it a priority to name people who you've learned from, I think sometimes we can fall into this perfectionistic rhythm of needing to do all of the things and getting into paralyzed fear and not doing anything because we feel like it's too much. And this is a really helpful lesson that you've shared in your own story around how you've made activism work on a sustainable scale, it sounds like from this one, one way, but also expanding off of that as well, too. And I will just share, I've wanted to talk about this for a long time with somebody on this podcast, and maybe you're the person to do this. But God talk about self censorship. I mean, I, I'd actually love your perspective on this, I struggled with that whole much too, during, during the George Floyd, period. And just really the whole year after that, as well to being a white female in a smaller body, who is really committed to activism work in my own way, and really creating spaces for people in different size bodies and Health at Every Size, and educating around all these things. It was a moment where I also was just like, Well, I'm not going to say anything, because who am I. I am, like dripping in privilege, I am not worthy of saying anything at all, like I was, I felt deeply ashamed of my body size, and the color of my skin. And it really also, and then also feeling like that white guilt, which is just like so. Like, that's, that's another topic in itself as well, too. And not not really knowing what to do with it. And what's so interesting, because this is not making the conversation about me, I just think it's really important to express how we are all dealing with this in different ways. And what I've really found is that the root of this is a patriarchy, white supremacy, the people pleasing and perfectionism that has been created through the patriarchy, and all of these things. And I just love your perspective on this arena, and how you've chosen to make this work. And I'm learning so much. I also had a reckoning last year where I was just like, Fuck this, I'm done with being quiet. This isn't helping anybody, I'm just gonna keep talking, keep speaking my truth. If it makes somebody uncomfortable or pisses somebody off, then you know, I can learn from my mistakes, and also keep moving forward. And if it makes somebody uncomfortable, like that's not their shit. And being prepared, like expectation setting, really being prepared to not get it right, the idea isn't to get it right, but to lead with good intentions and to continue learning. And I think as recovering people pleasers that can be so deeply uncomfortable, because I come by that honestly, as well to Serena, I am in that camp of recovering people pleaser, myself. And I consider that just a lifelong journey that I can name just like you. And it's really helpful to notice where that is showing up. And what else is there? Like, what how your inner child is screaming out in that moment, right.
Serena:
Yeah, I have so many. I mean, I know you didn't ask a question. But it's a conversation. You know, I have a few things. And I think, like you said, one of them is participate, knowing that you're going to make mistakes, because we are entrenched in white supremacy and do the work while like, do the work, read, learn from other people. If you make a mistake, learn from it, talk to people, you know, reparations in whatever way that is like having them on your platform or, you know, pay them for their time for educating you or all of those things because it's a continuous thing that like you can't know what you don't know. And once you learn it, like make up for it. It's I mean, that's only what we can do and and still being aware every time a speaking gig comes in, like make sure there are people who represent other identities besides yours on the panel on or, you know, and if there aren't like St. Maybe say no to the panel, introduce them to people who might be like, represent other identities. And one of the really just important things for me, like, I'm just thinking about the white guilt thing. And I might not be the right person, I, you know, we never know if we're the right person. But we all have an opinion, we've all been taught by someone, one of my college professors told me something that I, I continuously, I'm going to email her later and tell her about us. She's a white, thin woman, whatever she, but she, you know, you can still learn from everybody. And actually sometimes, like learning from people who have done more work than you, makes you learn where you need to do your own work. She told me, you know, in class, she was like, the ability to be afflicted is a positive thing. So sometimes, like, there's a point where guilt is not helpful, if it gets crippling, and you're not doing anything, because you just feel bad all the time. And it's all about you. But there's a point where like being afflicted like being affected by an issue, where it's like, there is an inequity here that people are seriously like dying, people are constantly be being affected by this issue, by the systems, and the systems exist, and they shouldn't exist in the way that they do. Like, I think I live my life by kind of, if you see someone who is experiencing pain and harm, you should feel something. If you don't feel something that means you don't care. And it doesn't mean that feeling something is an action, because it's certainly not like you can feel empathy and pain for someone else and not do anything about it. But for me feeling that pain, and never truly understanding someone's pain, because you can't you don't know someone's pain, but to see it and acknowledge it means that for me that's like, I don't want people to be in pain. So I don't want people to be experiencing these horrible like horrible inequities, and injustices. So what am I going to do about it? Everybody can do something on an individual level, on a community level? No, on a state level, a systemic level, like, things can change. I've seen it happen. But you have to believe it's possible and you have to be in it for the long haul. Like you said, it's sustainable. Because if you're just going to spend a year after something happens working on something, it's not going to change, like maybe you get like a small change at the scoreboard, maybe something changes like within your time your small community, which is a change, but it's like how can we make activism sustainable? How can we in a very social justice liberating way take care of ourselves in order to forward the mission like it's so complicated and the whole self care and like, self love thing is very complicated, because I've been reading, y'all should all read this. I just started Da'Shaun L. Harrison's Belly of the Beast, anti fatness as anti blackness.
Katelyn:
Yes, I have not read it. I have not read it. And I have heard nothing but amazing things about it. We'll link it in the show notes so that everybody can get their hands on it.
Serena:
Da’Shaun is like, I knew that they were amazing. And then I read two chapters so far, and I was like, okay, they are amazing. So anyway, if you want your mind to be blown, read their book. But um, it's I there was a lot of talk around, you know, the protests after George Floyd lasted for months, and still come up every once in a while, because ridiculously but expectedly unfortunately, black people keep being killed by ingest systems and by police systems and law enforcement, whatever, and so on. But as an activist and I use that word specifically because it lights a fire. A lot of people prefer to use the word advocate, I am also an advocate. But I specifically use the word activist and call myself an activist and identify that way and feel it so heavily in my heart because I am trying, and I am making change. But as an activist, like you have to know that it's kind of a lifelong commitment. Which means some weeks, some, like months, you might be focusing on one thing, and not spending time on the hill or in legislatures or anything like that. But even just doing your own work, like for me doing my inner internal processing, and reflecting on my own biases, and also where I just come from, in general and unpacking things is a part of activism, like everything starts with yourself, but also should include others.
Katelyn:
I love that. Yeah. And I think that I really appreciate that you distinguished between activism and advocacy. And also I think it's, I think it's so important to, for everybody to really get honest with what, what resonates with you, you know, are you trying to be an activist, when you actually don't want to be you're doing it from a place of should? Or are you leaning into advocacy, when you really want to be an activist? And you don't think that you can? You know, I think it's really getting honest with what you want what's at your core, what lights a fire, just like you said, and knowing that all of it is possible, all of it is good. And it's not as black and white, as I'm making it out to be there's a lot of nuance and complexities like you've described in both. But do you? Do you agree? Or do you have a different perspective on it just I saw myself getting caught up in that a lot. You know, I have so much respect for activists, and especially frontline activists, but really any activist who was just doing more than I am, let's just say, and I, I really sat in so much guilt and shame around that because I wasn't an activist. And then for me, I just decided, I, right now, I'm not going to be an activist, but I am going to be an advocate. And that is something I can get behind full force that lights a fire under my ass. And that's something I'm proud to say and I'm committed to and gets me to do the work. And it's just interesting how I like it. I'm sure advocacy and activism means something different. Lita, me, like they're just words, but they mean something. And you know, so what are your thoughts?
Serena:
Yeah, I think it's, that's a great thing. I think, first of all, you can always be both or one or the other, or, and it's flexible and fluid, like maybe one day you I mean, it is like, you know, it is different. And I just say, you know, it's I'm, I'm so young. So I'm still trying to figure out all these things. And how much labels matter is something that is constantly, you know, labels like being called fat, like calling myself fat is powerful. So I think labels can be powerful in that they can inspire, or they can also be limiting. So it's whatever works for you. And also whatever. Like, if you're also if you're doing activism work and you don't call yourself an activist, it doesn't really matter because you're still helping for admission. And that's a great question. I mean, the thing with me is, you know, I, my everyday work and like I think all the providers, clinical providers who are helping people with eating disorders, people who are doing their own work and attending weight stigma things and like working out their own biases. You're doing work that is like, clinical providers are the super like the superheroes like coaches are the superheroes. Y'all are doing the work on the ground as people who are Helping kind of after a lot of harm sometime has been done by a system. What I like to be as an activist, which I think therapists oh my gosh, so important. And we all have our place, right? So but then as for me as an activist, I don't want to, I don't really want to be in clinical because I feel too many things and get too attached. And that's my own thing. But instead, I found a space where I can be an activist and trying to like be preventative in like, what can we do with legislation? And stay in like, federal government? What sort of things can we input to prevent eating disorders from happening to prevent, like, rent? Or, you know, housing prices, or insurance being higher for fat people, or black people or people of color? Like? What sort of education can I provide to other people that is helpful in them be able to identify where their biases are? And how can we just existing in the space also be an inspiration for people, not an inspiration of as in like an aspiration of like, what you should be, but as anytime I have a discussion about these things, my intention is never to change your mind. Because you might not agree, you might like, have completely different opinions and research shows things and science. But sometimes people have really strong opinions about fat people, or weight sigma, and they don't believe it's true. But my goal in every conversation is just three hours later, I want you to think about it. I want you to think about it when you go to work and see a fat person, a fat colleague and like, think about why, what how you're thinking about them. Like, if, if there's only one thing I could do, and it's as an activist every day, it's just to have conversations and to be my full self and to inspire thoughts. The you don't have to have the same thoughts as me, but just to have thoughts about things and to think about things critically, I think,
Katelyn:
What's the best way that somebody can do that for for all of us listening? And you're such a brilliant educator, and this is what you do? You go into companies and education systems and educate around all of these things, body image, fat, phobia, weight stigma, all the things. What's one way that we can start looking at this more critically, regardless of what size body you're in? But what are some of those questions that you normally offer to people in your workshops, when you're educating?
Serena:
The first question that I start with is, what words do you associate around fat people? And they send them in on and the words show up on the board. So you can do this by yourself, just journal? And then why like, what is your reasoning behind them? And what are the similarities? If you're in a group? What are the similarities? What are the differences? Where do these things come from? And then I use research and facts, to share my point of view and, and sciences point of view on this topic. And propose for some, a completely new idea, or for others, an affirming idea. And so I think, just, like, be thoughtful in when you see a fat person, what do you think of them? Like, logically, what do you think with your brain? And then, I mean, I know it's all your brain, but then what is your immediate, physical, emotional reaction to a fat person? And it could be really surprising. So now, like, as I've done a lot of the work, I feel quite different about fat people than I did when I started. And that also adjust to how I feel about myself. So and in the same way, like, if you see a thin person, do you react? How do you react and how is that different than your how you react to a fat person?
Katelyn:
What are some of the ways that your thoughts have changed around bodies in general, as you've begun doing this work, what are some thoughts that you notice that you have more often now, about that people? And what were your thoughts before, if you're open to sharing?
Serena:
Yeah, I want to be cautious of time for your sake, but I'm happy to speak. Hmm. So in general, what I was taught by society, and what a lot of people might resonate with is like, this thought that fat people are inherently less healthy. That health is important, and is important and above all else, and that you are not valuable if you are not healthy. And generally, like that fat people are lazy, that they can't do sports. And there are so many, the reason that I know that these are like constructs that we were told, constructs, meaning lies, and myths that are not true, or don't apply to everyone is that we have exceptions where we accept fat people. So think about the NFL, there are a lot of fat linebackers, who are huge. And they are really fit, which you can't tell by what they look like. But they can run across 100 yards like 100 yard field. They are loud and supported for their prowess on the football field. You know, there are the whole there's a whole thing about you know, people in the military and their BMI, because BMI is bullshit. By the way, this is just an accepted fact, in my world now. But there's like, you can't be a certain BMI in the military. Except you can because you can be like, if you're just muscle or like you, you're able to achieve the things and do the physical tests and whatever. And yeah, so like, all these things are to say, like how we view certain fat people versus other fat people is different. And what has changed is me Recognizing this, like why do we accept certain people over others? Why is like, why is a fat person who can work out or run across a field more valuable than a fat person who works on their computer at home. And it's not like so my thought has been, it's not like they're not more valuable, they are equally valuable. And equally valuable to them. And I've been doing a lot of self processing around health and the importance of health. And there's this whole thing about like, you can be healthy, at whatever way and it's all not dependent on BMI. It also has to do with mental health factors, and activity and diet and diet, meaning like what you eat and trauma and genetic and everything. But that is to say is someone less valuable as a person because they are less healthy? My mom has been sick for over half of her life. And for most of my life, does that make her as a person in society less valuable? Then my dad who is physically healthy and unable to do all these things. So what I found now is like, no, they're equally valuable. They provide different things based on their abilities. And that's the same with differences and helping people or whatever even health means so have many other things that I could bring up but I think that's a good start.
Katelyn:
Yeah, it's super valuable and really great examples that you shared. I think this is really helpful. And I love the conversation around redefining health and what that means and how our general perception of health and all this is attached to the patriarchy? Yeah. It's all attached to like ability to perform in a labor environment where you had to be physically able to do things. Now you don't. It's so complex. And one of the biggest themes that I'm taking away from this conversation is how important it is to educate, to just dig into literature. And, you know, you don't have to spend hours reading research papers, I think there's, there's enough content and enough people who are well educated, breaking down research papers, in really comprehensive ways. But I think that you've given us such a great idea of how to get started and encouragement to really lean into a lot of the resources to, to empower ourselves and educate further. And on that note, let's wrap up with just your favorite resources. If you were to give a guide to anybody really digging into fat activism, or any of the things that we've talked about today, just yeah, really anything that we've talked about, what are your top resources that you would offer? Somebody? books, podcasts, just anything?
Serena:
Oh, gosh. That is a great question. And I have an okay, I'll list a few. And then. So I want you all to be aware that I have two bookcases full of books that I have definitely not read all of them. And I keep buying books, because that's who I am. So if you are someone who knows you want to read? Yes, you can. Like I am now making an intention to read these books. But I agree. There are a lot of Instagram accounts like Oh, my goodness, I'm gonna go draw a blank. I have like a list of Instagram accounts, you can throw into the notes if you want. I will do that.
Katelyn:
I'm totally putting you on the spot it honestly I don't know if I would be able to answer this question at the end of the conversation either so well, right.
Serena:
It's like 10 years of I know, like how do I even say everybody who has made such an impact on me? I will tell you the books that I are next on my list and that I'm currently reading. I told you Belly of the Beast by Da’Shaun Harrison's what I'm currently reading I the kind of one of the best ones that I haven't read fully. I've read bits and pieces of Fearing the Black Body by Dr. Sabrina Strings that is one of the most like pivotal pieces of literature at this time in like, anti blackness anti fatness and oh my goodness, Hunger by Roxane Gay. I have a whole list I just read. It's a fiction book. But if you ever want to know how a fat person or at least how I felt in my body as a young person in general 13 ways of Looking at a Fat Girl. I just did a podcast episode on this. It's by Mona Awad, technically fiction, but doesn't feel like fiction. So yeah, I'll send you some more links.
Katelyn:
That's a great place to start. Those are really solid resources for everyone to get a jumpstart if they've not already dug into that. And the cool thing about just starting with one of these resources is you can quickly go down the rabbit hole because these are incredible people that you just mentioned who are very well connected with other incredible people in the space, yourself included. So yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here. I thank you for really just showing up, sharing your truth, being vulnerable, educating us. I learned so much. I'm just having this conversation in, in general, where can everybody find you and connect to learn more about you get into your world all the things?
Serena:
Yeah, so I am on Instagram and Facebook @thebodyactivists and my website is thebodyactivists.com. Definitely connect with me on LinkedIn, Serena Nangia, and Mmm, those are all the best places to find me.
Katelyn:
Sweet. We'll link it in the show notes to keep it easy along with all of these resources and more, but thank you Serena for being here and cannot wait to see what's next for you in your journey. It's pretty awesome.
Serena:
Thank you so much.