Episode 077 Dr. Camila Williams: Unpacking Perfectionism
Episode 077 Dr. Camila Williams: Unpacking Perfectionism
In this episode we sit down with....Camila Williams.
Dr. Camila Williams is a mindset expert, board certified psychologist, and cognitive behavioral specialist who has specialized in the field of perfectionism, anxiety, and stress management for over 10 years. As a “Perfectionist in Recovery,” and mother-of-three she understands only too well the delicate balance between the strive for excellence and crippling self-doubt. Working with her, high achievers learn how to break the shackles of self-doubt, limiting beliefs, and procrastination to truly live into their gifts and drive without always second guessing themselves.
In this conversation we talk about:
Camila’s personal body image story- undergoing gastric bypass surgery in college and all about her personal experience
The effects of experiencing racial discrimination at a young age
Allowing space for grief during the process of self-acceptance
Practical tools for confronting habits of procrastination
All about perfectionism- root causes, the correlation with control and trauma, and action items to begin rewiring your brain
Connect with our guest...
Join her private Facebook Group: The Freedom Shift Where Perfectionists Find Joy Peace & Success
Resources we mention in this episode…
Ready to heal your relationship with food + body?
Book your FREE Body Trust Breakthrough Consult
Grab your FREE Intuitive Eating Workshop
Get weekly email support from me to help you heal your relationship with food + body image
TRANSCRIPTION
Episode 077 Dr. Camila Williams: Unpacking Perfectionism
Katelyn:
All right, Dr. Camila Williams, welcome to the show. I am so happy to have you here.
Camila:
Hi. I'm glad to be here today. This is exciting.
Katelyn:
Yeah. And by the way, everyone I asked, do we go by Dr. Williams or Camila? It’s Camilla for this conversation.
Camila:
Yes. Thank you.
Katelyn:
Camilla and I met a couple of weeks ago. And she's just absolutely fabulous. I don't know anything about your body image story, though. So I'm really excited to just get to know you more on this level, as well as just get some of your expertise within perfectionism and anxiety and stress management, some of these areas that you specialize in. So let's dive in. Are you ready?
Camila:
Yeah, let's go for it. So the first question that we ask everybody on the show is your first body awareness moment. So we all have one- that moment where you realized, I'm in a body, and that means something in the world that I'm living in. What did that look like for you? And how did that shape your relationship with your body and or food moving forward? What's your story?
Camila (body image story):
Yeah, it's funny, like I, the moment that sticks out to me the most is when I was eight years old, at church in Sunday school, right? Just the kid. And at that age, we all still thought that boys had cooties. And girls had cooties. And there was only one other girl in my Sunday school class. And I wanted to sit by her, right, I didn't want to sit with the boys. And I would sit by her. And she'd be like, I don't want to sit by you- you have bad breath. So then, like the following Sunday, I remember I brushed my teeth, like 5 times, like, I'm not going to have bad breath. And I would go there. And she's like, I don't want to sit by you. You have bad breath. And I'm like, No, no, I brushed my teeth five times. I know I don't. And she's like, well, I just think you smell bad. So then the following Sunday, I asked my mom if I could take a shower right before church to make sure that I smell good. And it was like the same thing. And I'm like, I know, I don't smell bad because I just showered. And she kept basically saying that I smelled bad and I had bad breath. And she just didn't want to sit by me, it was the first time that it really hit me that something about my being my body was offensive to someone else. And that there, no matter what I did, it didn't change that. And that kind of really carried with me. in an interesting way, cuz part of my brain is like, if it's about my body, that's something that I can change. But if it's about who I am, I can't change who I am. So it was almost like a good defense for me, an ego defense to latch on and hold on to, if people don't like me or accept me because of my body. I can fix that. Because if people don't like or accept me because of who I am, I don't know what to do with that.
Katelyn:
Wow, that is super powerful. So what did you do with this information, this realization that you had at the time that you could change your body, and that would have an impact on how people perceived you?
Camila:
Yeah, I was only eight when all that all that happened. It really wasn't till I hit puberty, and I started gaining weight. But I did become much more self conscious of my dress, my parents and my hygiene. And then when I hit puberty, and I started gaining weight, I became like, full force into sports, thinking that I could out run my bad eating habits. And then in high school, I started yo yo dieting throughout high school. What did that look like? What type of yo yo dieting? Yeah, so I remember doing the Atkins diet. I remember doing Herbalife, my mom signed me up for Jenny Craig. They actually lost a lot of weight on Jenny Craig. But the story was always the same. And this is kind of where some of my perfectionism really reared its ugly head. I would start a diet and I would go all in full force perfectly right? To the point where I was obsessing. I became so obsessive about it, and I would lose a lot of weight very quickly because I was adhering to everything by the book perfectly. But that's not sustainable, life isn't perfect. Nothing we do. We can maintain that level of perfection and so inevitably, I would always fall off the wagon. And I would always end up bingeing my, you know, it was I, I never got to the point where I would throw up, but I did definitely have like a binge restrict cycle. And so every time I finished the diet, I hit my goal weight, I would gain everything back, and then some. How long did that continue on for? Gosh, so that was all through high school, into college. And in college I, I really doubled down on maybe I can outrun my bad eating habits. And I was working out twice a day every day because the college gym was free to students and was open at really, really late hours. And that didn't work. And so I had this belief that nothing I did would change how I looked. Right. And so I went the very drastic route. And I flew to another country to get gastric bypass surgery because I didn't qualify for it here in the States. And so I had gastric bypass sophomore year in college and lost a lot of weight. And I kept it off for eight years before all of it started creeping back on over the next several years accumulate.
Katelyn:
If someone isn't familiar with gastric bypass, can you explain what that is?
Camila:
Yeah, I know, there's a couple different ways they can do the surgery now. But in essence, a doctor cuts you open, they can do it laparoscopically that back then and cut you wide open, they separate your stomach into a tiny little stomach, that becomes your working stomach. And then the rest of your stomach, they deviate a little bit of your intestine and attach it to the rest of your stomach. So you basically cut your stomach down to less than half. And the idea is that if you have a small stomach, you feel full, much quicker, you eat much less because literally can't fit into your stomach. And then when they deviate some of the intestine, it prevents your body from absorbing some of the calories, which also helps with weight loss. The consequence of that is that it also gets in the way of your body absorbing all the vitamins and minerals that you need.
Katelyn:
So this is a major surgery. I mean, I mean in so many ways- physically, financially, energetically, the recovery period, the repercussions afterwards, it's a major surgery. So I would imagine it would require a pretty significant moment to be able to make this decision that this is right for you. Or that you've reached a point where this was, this was the option that you felt confident about. So what do you attribute in your story? To leading you to this point? What were some of the circumstances that were going on in your life that you can look back on in hindsight now and just paint the picture of the moment for us where you just made that decision? This is what I'm doing, especially getting rejected from the United States and having to go to another country?
Camila:
Yeah, I remember in high school, a family friend had the surgery done. And that's when I first heard about it. And actually, they were the ones who later connected me with the surgeon. And when I first heard about it, I was so judgmental and so critical of her. I'm like How could you do that to your body? Like how could you like I thought of it like cheating or the shortcut. And it was so tragic for the body physically to go through that and I was so critical of her being like, you just need to eat healthy and exercise, right? That classic judgment if you just eat healthy and exercise you wouldn't need to go to this extreme. And then I was eating my words. Five years later. Alright putting my foot in my own mouth because over the over the those years eating and exercise didn't work for me. It wasn't working for me. All the diets I was trying. I know I was an athlete in high school. I lettered. I write It's not like I was sitting out. It's not like the typical stereotype, right there is a cultural stigma of being fat and lazy. Right? I wasn't fat and lazy. I was extremely active and yet I was still obese. I didn't quite hit that morbidly threshold but I was very obese. And that frustration, I just got so tired. And it really felt to me at that time that none of the diet and exercise was working for me and that this was my way out, that if this worked for her, this would work for me. And the desire there, which has been a desire my whole life, was just to fit in and be accepted. This idea that if I just look beautiful, I'll be, I'll be accepted. I'll be part of the “in crowd”, I'll be cool. I know it sounds so silly. This hearing myself say that out loud. But that was really the desire to fit in. And they always attributed me not fitting in to me being fat.
Katelyn:
Where do you feel like you weren't fitting in? And because you just mentioned the in crowd. But describe that a little bit- was that just in school? Was that within your family? Is that just showing up in life and feeling like you didn't fit in? Where were some of the areas of your life where you felt that the most significantly?
Camila:
Yeah, I definitely felt that the most at school, right? Because when you're in high school, and College, school is kind of like the bulk of your social life. And I was always like, the nerdy, the nerdy loner, and I would I, you know, I've got so many stories of, you know, my attempts to join different social groups, different groups of people, the different kinds of exclusions that would happen. And I, you know, there were lots of times I'm like, geez, like, is there just something wrong with me as a person? Am I just that I'm pleasant to be around with? And of course, like, my family would always tell me, no, no, you're great. And so I, you know, I never really quite figured out I didn't really fit in with obviously not the cool kids. With the athletes, right? I tried hanging out with all the other girls on the soccer team on the track team. That didn't work out either. I tried hanging out with different study groups. And it's just, I don't know, like that, that might be a whole nother conversation. But really this desire of maybe if I was beautiful, if I was skinny, and beautiful people would be more willing to give me the time to get to know me. That was the thought, the belief.
Katelyn:
So knowing, knowing what you know, now, personally and professionally, what do you feel like was really going on at that point in time? What was either missing or what the thing that you perhaps just weren't able to connect with at that point that you can see now in your life?
Camila:
Kind of hindsight bias as a grown up looking back, one of the things that stood out to me a lot, even going back to that very first experience when I was eight years old, right, was the fact that a lot of it was racially motivated racial discrimination. I was the quote, unquote, dirty immigrant. I was incredibly dark skinned, because I was always playing soccer outside in the sun. And so never fitting in ethnic ethnically because I was Brazilian, not Mexican. And in Los Angeles, the Latino crowd is Spanish. And I remember the Latino girls at school, getting really upset with me thinking that I was conceited, they're like, you are so stuck up and you're so conceited. You won't even speak Spanish to us. And I'm like, because I don't know how to speak Spanish. I speak Portuguese. And they're like, oh, you're lying. You just think you're too good for us. So that was like that one aspect of like, okay, I don't fit in with Latinos, because I'm not Hispanic and resilient. I don't fit in with the white people. Because I'm not white. I'm Latina. Right, you know? And then that piece of like, I really did take to heart like am I conceited because I was smart. I was the nerd. I was in all the advanced classes. And that kind of does mark you among the kids at that age. I was like the nerd. And so I noticed that I learned to hide, like maybe if I just hide and disappear and become the wallflower and I learned that I carry that in my body. Physically a lot. Just like you know, when someone slumps, their shoulders forwards and tries to shrink into a ball. Like I noticed, like I learned to carry that kind of stance with me for a long, long time.
Katelyn:
Because then you wouldn't be called out or you wouldn't be made to feel conceited. You know, you were the opposite of conceited then nobody could really, like point the finger at you in that way.
Camila:
Exactly. So it's avoidance, which is perfection is an avoidance and yeah, and it's like I found solace in my books, it was easier to make friends with the characters in the books than it was to make friends in real life. And then, like, you know, like, I thought I would grow out of it when I got to college. And I did find a good friend group. In senior year, I had a good friend group, which ironically, was childhood friends from elementary that we reconnected with. Freshman year in college, I found a good friend group. But then the piece that really happened there was that everyone I was around was dating. I never got asked that I never had a boyfriend, I was never kissed until I was 28 years old. And so like that added feels like, okay, even if I can mature and grow into forming social friendships, I'm still not the girl The guy is ever going to ask out. And what really hit home was after I lost all the weight with the gastric bypass, I still went another six years without ever having a boyfriend. Right? So that was really like crap. Like, I always thought if I looked good, this would happen. And here I am, I'm still single, I'm still a loner, I'm still the nerd. It really messed with my mind, because it kind of forced me to get to that point, like, what the hell is wrong with me. And that's where perfectionism came in. Maybe if I am just perfect enough, then I'll be good enough.
Katelyn:
Wow, talk about dismantling a belief in a really profound way, this belief of if I change my body, I'll be accepted, I'll be worthy. And to go through something as extreme as gastric bypass and to still feel that unworthiness and lack of acceptance and all the things that you're experiencing that. I mean, that's so confronting.
Camila:
Tell me about it.
Katelyn:
So how did you handle that? I mean, because how old were you at this point? Was this around 28? Or earlier than that?
Camila:
So it was earlier, right? I'm, I'm trying to think through the, like, the timeline, I was 21 or 22 when I had the surgery. And so, you know, I remember still thinking like, Okay, I'm just not in the right place, I just need to get out more. And so I really tried to be like that social butterfly or like really putting myself out there. And if nothing was happening, and I moved away for school, so I was far away from home and my typical support. And I was having a hard time making friends, like always have always had a hard time making friends. And that's when I think the biggest shift for me was when I finally stopped focusing on how I can get others to accept me. And I just kind of like, you know, you get to that moment where you look in the mirror and you're like, Alright, if you forget about everyone else, what do you want to do? Just forget about everyone's Where do you want to spend your time? What do you want to do? You know, focus on that. And that's really kind of what I ended up doing was just like, you know what, like, I did get to that point where I stopped training and I focused on what I wanted to do and I formed one really good friendship that to this day, like I consider her my my sister. We became really good friends. And I'm like, no, I don't need to. I didn't invest time and try to socialize with all these other people. I had one good friend. I was doing school. I like school, I was focusing on my hobbies and my interests. And that's kind of what helped me kind of get through that time.
Katelyn:
So it sounds like you decided you made this really personal decision to show up for yourself versus focusing on pleasing everyone else and performing for other people you know what you felt like they would want you to be or do.
Camila:
Yeah, yeah. And it was hard because I had to deal with the grief. Yeah, there was that grief, that sadness of Oh, I've let go of that wish of that desire. All right, like all right. I don't have a big group of social friends. I don't have a boyfriend I've never been kissed like and just dealing with that grief, and just focusing on, forget what they want, forget what they're thinking, What do I want? What do I want to do and focus on that.
Katelyn:
So when you decided this, and I'm so glad you brought up the grief, that is such an important part of the process and this conversation that we have to talk about. And it's so essential for really going through this, this individual process of self-acceptance. When you were going through this, and when you finally felt like you were able to move through enough to feel things start to shift, what did you notice? Like, what were some of the things that that gave you permission to do in life for the first time, perhaps? I know that you mentioned your best friend, is there anything else that you feel like was really pivotal in terms of just your overall life and how you felt moving through it?
Camila:
Yeah, it's funny, like, just you helping me like put all the timelines in order in my head. It gave me permission to say no, right? Because when you're always worried about what other people think, and you're performing, and you're trying to be perfect, and you're trying to achieve, it's like, there is a bit of like that people-pleasing, and being afraid to like, do what you want, because how are others going to react. And one of the biggest things I said was, I said no, to my graduate school program, I wasn't going to stay there, I moved, I moved out of state, I did it through the like resume. To finish out my classes, I created my own internship experiences in the new state, because I am like, I'm done. This isn't the right place for me. And I had kind of been dragging my feet thinking that I had to be there and I had to finish the program. They're in their way. But when I did get to that point of like, I didn't care what they thought anymore. It was when I started kind of like making the decisions for me and moving back home to be close to my family was very healing because I now have my support back around me.
Katelyn:
Which is so essential- support in the healing process.
Camila:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Yeah. You know what it really sounds like Camilla, it sounds like you for perhaps one of the first times we're really leaning into your intuition versus impulse.
Camila:
Yeah, it's, it's so interesting, right? Because I know you really teach people on how to listen to that intuition and honor what your body is telling you. And when you are a perfectionist, you are so worried about controlling how others see you and controlling the outcomes of the results of the things you do and, and just controlling your emotional life that you're not paying attention at all. To what your body is telling you. Yeah, absolutely. I did start to become more aware and pay more attention to what my gut I call it. My gut was telling me.
Katelyn:
Yeah, gut, I mean, call it whatever, whatever word feels good for you. But yeah, we're, I think we're saying the same thing. It sounds like but and that's I mean, when we can be in alignment with our, our gut and, and really trust that aspect of our life- that's when we get to really step into true authenticity and confidence. And that rock solid inner confidence that gives us the permission to just be and to show up exactly as we are without worrying about what everybody else thinks and just to live our damn lives. Yeah. So I want to go backwards before we go forwards if it's okay with you, because we've never had a conversation about gastric bypass, and I think it would be a really excellent time to ask some questions around this. I'd love to go back to what you mentioned about your body changing after the gastric bypass surgery. Can you paint the picture of this chapter of your story for us? I mean, I'm sure this was fraught with so many different emotions and expectations and all of these things. So after the surgery, what did that look like just seeing your body perhaps change and then the change after from the weight gain that you had mentioned?
Camila:
Yeah. The recovery after this surgery was incredibly painful. And I can't tell you how many times right you're lying there in bed. thinking why did I do this to myself? And just second guessing all your decisions because I know they do it laparoscopically now, but back then it was cheaper and actually safer to, for them to cut your core muscles, they cut your core muscles, the muscles, you used to sit up the muscles you used to go to the bathroom, to roll over in bed. And just to have that soreness in that recovery. And I know that I was very lucky because I was young and healthy. I didn't have diabetes, I didn't have any chronic illnesses. So I actually healed up fairly quickly when I went into the follow up with the doctor. The nurses gasped when they saw me walking in. And they're like, we've never seen anyone, like, recover this quickly. And I'm like, well, this is what it's like when you do surgery on someone who doesn't have diabetes with chronic illnesses, the body bounces back a little bit quicker. But I had to live with the scar. And the instructions was to not eat sugar for six months. And I remember later asking the surgeon about that. Like, what is the medical necessity for this? Because I stuck to that row. He's like, honestly, I just tell that to people so they lose more weight. And because they think it's related to the surgery. They actually listened to me. I'm like what? Like, yeah. Because if you just tell people to lay off sugar like, right, it's so hard. But if you say like, no, this is for the surgery, this is for your recuperation. You could jeopardize everything you cannot eat sugar is like people will listen and it's just to lose more weight. So I lost. I think almost all of the weight is like the first six months.
Katelyn:
Can I just pause real quick?
Camila:
Yeah.
Katelyn:
Everybody who's listening. This does not mean that if you stop eating sugar, you lose weight.
Camila:
Yeah, no, no, no.
Katelyn:
I just want to be super clear. For the safety of this community. Yeah. I think the conversation around sugar is so backwards the way that this is communicated, and especially the way the fear mongering around sugar is showing up in our culture right now. It's just ridiculous. So anyways, I just wanted to plug that in before moving forward.
Camila:
Yeah, no, that was just a little tidbit that the surgeon would throw out for his patients to get them to try to lose even more weight. But no, it was definitely because I had a tiny stomach and a large portion of my intestine deviated from the weight loss. And so like I couldn't, I could only eat very small portions. I had to kind of completely revamp my diet. And it busted a lot of myths, right? Like these beliefs, I actually can revamp my diet. Right, like when the motivation or fear or whatever's hanging over you is strong enough like I can make all these changes and change how I eat. I also started taking a lot of supplements and that's going to be a lifelong consequence that I have to live with is that my body cannot absorb the nutrients and minerals that I need from food alone, because I'm missing part of my upper small intestine. So I have to stay on supplements for the rest of my life. And that kind of sucks, I really, you know, like, like, well I made that decision I have to own it now and so because I lost the weight so quickly I had a lot of loose skin. And I still do to this day of very very loose sagging skin. Because I had, I didn't give my time to my body any time to adjust to the changes. So there is zero elasticity there. And then the I think the sad part of how I managed to torture myself through this whole process I didn't mention this before was the surgeon warned me that I was going to lose a lot of weight, hit my lowest point and then gain a little bit and settle like a setpoint so I got to my lowest WEIGHT EVER which was a size six for me and I'm five nine so I felt amazing at a size six and that became like the goal in my head. And then I gained a little bit more weight and I settled at a size eight. So I spent the next eight years not happy with my body because I believed I could lose another five or 10 pounds. The next eight years I was always trying to lose those last five pounds. And I look back at that and I want to kick myself for it. Right because I look at the pictures for myself back then I looked great at a size a I looked amazing at that size and I couldn't see it. I couldn't accept it. And I I stole my joy right you steal your joy, by always believing that I could lose five more pounds to get down to back down to that size six that I was at for a little bit after the surgery.
Katelyn:
Yes, so much mental energy and emotional energy as well, too. And just like you're saying there, it really steals your joy. And what do you attribute that to now just the focus on that aspect of your life like, because I think that your story is unique. And I also think that we put our mental energy on something like losing the last five pounds, or the control of a diet or whatnot, for a very specific reason that doesn't have anything to do with our bodies and foods. So in your professional opinion now, and also your own personal life experience in hindsight, what would you attribute that to specifically- how your focus was on losing the last five pounds in that phase of your, of your journey?
Camila:
Oh, I definitely attribute that to my perfectionism. Alright, and there's a part of me that is like, oh, like you set the bar. So high. And in this case, that was the lowest weight, right? So set the bar the lowest way and, and my brains like it's possible, you did it once. Come on high achiever, you should be able to get there, right? In. So it's like that, that high achiever perfectionist in me, like really had this idea that like, I should be able to hit that mark. If I just try hard, hard enough, right? If I just try hard enough. But I'm not, you know, I think about the return on investment of our time. Trying hard enough to lose those last five pounds is stealing so much joy, it wasn't worth the investment of my time, or my mental energy. And, like now I still like, I'm still working through this guy's Okay, like being a psychologist doesn't protect me or make me immune to any of this. I'm still working through this. But my focus now really is to not let my fears stop me, right? Because when it comes to it's like, well, when I lose weight, then I'll buy the bathing suit, when I lose weight, then I'll go to the pool with my kids. When I lose weight, then I'll buy that cute dress in the size that I'm going to be at. And it's this idea of like, No, just stop waiting. Stop waiting for that some day when I lose weight and just start doing it now. And I really, like even this summer, I had that moment of like, I don't want to, I don't want people to see me in a bathing suit at the pool. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, you're stealing your joy. Again, Camilla takes your kids to the pool and have fun. Don't steal your joy, because you're worried about how you look and and then I always have to remind myself like, my kids don't care how I look. They're not going to remember how I look. All they care is that their mom was having fun with him at the pool. And so I'm always having to remind myself not to wait until I achieve some mythical standard that I think I should be at, to then enjoy life.
Katelyn:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's that going back to deciding for yourself- deciding that you are worthy versus waiting on other people to let you know that. Yeah. And that kind of brings us to where you are today. And I appreciate you saying that. Just because you're a psychologist doesn't make you immune from challenges or struggles or insecurities. You're a human being and human beings, like all of us have. You're on this journey in life and in society that is, you know, fraught with different body ideas and diet culture swimming all around us. So how did you get into the work that you do today?
Camila:
Yeah, in graduate school, when you're studying to be a psychologist, you do lots of practicums in different settings. Right. And I tried so many different settings. And I kind of really fell in love with working with trauma and anxiety. And I think it's interesting, like, let me rewind even further. Yeah, let's go Wait, let's go way back. Okay. Yeah. I got into, Oh, my gosh, I'm kind of my brain is all over the place right now. And I'm afraid to say this a lot. But maybe it is true. I got into psychology in high school. I was reading all the psych books because there really was a part of me that believed that if I could figure out how people tick you I could figure out how to be friends and make friends.
Katelyn:
Wow!
Camila:
Right? If I could just understand how people work, how their brains work, what motivates them, if I can really understand the psychology of others, then I could figure out how I can be friends with people and how. And so I gobbled up all the psychology books in high school. And the subject matter was very easy for me in college to pursue. And what really drew me into it was learning about people's stories, because that's what psychology is, for me, is I get to be a part of people's stories. And I've always loved stories. Me too. Yeah. So and then in graduate school, I started specializing in trauma and anxiety. Because of that, I just found kind of a natural knack for working with it, for sitting with that emotion and for helping people calm down. Interesting. And so that became my specialty.
Katelyn:
So I know you also specialize in perfectionism. So how did you get into this work? When did that come onto your radar?
Camila:
Yeah, so perfectionism for me was like the common denominator for all of my trauma and anxiety patients, right? Yeah, if I had to like whittle it down, because when I was trying to kind of build my private practice, in my coaching practice at the time, like the trauma was a bit like scary, and it still had a lot of mental health stigma, and my business coach would be like, Is there another way you can communicate about what you do? And I'm like, honestly, what's underlying all of this is this, this perfectionism, it's, and like, the way I would conceptualize it, is perfectionism really being about control, right? If I do things perfectly, if everything is perfect, then I can control how other people see me, right? Because there's nothing for them to judge or criticize me on. I can control the outcome or the result, because I know it's going to work because I did it. And it's perfect. And I don't have to deal with the fear or uncertainty of what happens when you delegate to other people. And I can control how I feel. I can control my anxiety. Because I know that I'm, you know, I'm not leaving anything to chance. I'm working on everything. I'm putting all my time and energy into it, it's perfect. It's getting done exactly how I want it to be. It's reaching this extremely high standard that I'm setting for myself. And so when it comes to trauma and anxiety, that control piece really leads to people having these perfectionist behaviors. And I have so many of the people I've worked with, we're like, Well, I'm not a perfectionist. My life is a mess. Yeah, I know. It's not about your life being in perfect order. It's about that internal striving. It's like, yeah, your life is a mess. And internally, you're constantly beating yourself up for it, aren't you?.
Katelyn:
That is so fascinating. And I also had a personal lightbulb moment with that a few years ago, where I mean, I've said this so many times on the show by this point, but I'm absolutely a recovering perfectionist. And I'm also like an accidental perfectionist. Like, I had no idea I would never have identified myself in that way. And so when I really started learning that it was all about control, and the inner voice and the self imposed standard and expectation that I held for myself, it was so helpful, because then I felt like I could finally start to work through some of these things. So let's just do a perfectionism 101 and then I'd love to tie this back to your, your personal body image story and, and how you really saw this showing up and in your own experience with your body and your relationship with food. But since we're in the more clinical aspect of your story, we just kind of defined what perfectionism is: what contributes to perfectionism? What are some reasons that would facilitate somebody to become a perfectionist?
Camila:
Yeah, I you know, I, I've whittled it down to kind of two main root causes, doesn't mean this is the end all be all. There's always so many nuances when it comes to our personal experiences in our psyche, but the two most common reasons that lead To perfectionism that I've seen in experiences. The first one, it's a way to survive a very harsh or very critical environment. So this is where the trauma background comes in. I see perfectionism a lot in people who grew up in homes where a parent was bipolar, right? Because it's that uncertainty. I never know which side of my parents I'm going to get today, or where a parent was alcoholic. And so it's a survival mechanism. If I do things perfectly, if I don't rock the boat, if I achieve, then no one's gonna hit me. No one's gonna hurt me. No one's gonna yell at me. So it really becomes like this way to protect myself. And then there's this other side, right? Like why, like, for me, like, that wasn't me. I didn't grow up in a harsh or critical environment. I was very lucky. I had a very loving home so why am I a perfectionist? So the other avenue I see, it's, it's a way to gain love and acceptance with people. And tt's so innocuous and innocent when it starts, right. It's, you're in kindergarten, and you do really well and you get a gold star. And your kindergarten teacher is praising you, and you come home when mom and dad are praising you, and your classmates love your gold star sticker. And they want to and they want to look at it, and they're hanging out with you. And so I'm just using that, as you know, a very simple example of how subtle it can start, right, this message that when you achieve when you do well, people will like you, they will pay attention to you, they will appreciate you, they will accept you, they will love you. And it can start this pattern in order to be accepted. I need to achieve and I need to be perfect.
Katelyn:
Mmmmhmm. Yeah, to measure worthiness versus being.
Camila:
Yeah, exactly.
Katelyn:
Yeah, super fascinating. Where does avoidance play a role in perfectionism? I know, we had mentioned this earlier in the conversation.
Camila:
This is one of the most heartbreaking parts about being a perfectionist. And this is what I can see I did to myself a lot in my life. Being a perfectionist, I guess another way you could say it's like, it's not that I want to do things perfectly. It's that I'm afraid to fail. Right?
Katelyn:
Oh, I think so many people will resonate with that. I love the way that you worded that.
Camila:
Yeah, so if you’re like forget it, my life is a mess. No, it's I am so afraid of failing, and what it means to fail, and to fall flat on my face. And that's where the avoidance comes in. If there's any task where my brain is, like, I don't think you can do this, there's a good chance you might fail and you're gonna embarrass yourself, and everyone's gonna see, and everyone's gonna make fun of you, or criticize you, or even worse, point at you and say, I knew it, I knew it all along the CI word not cut out for this. So the fear of having to confront that or having to face that causes us to avoid, I'm not going to try, Nope, I'm going to avoid, I'm not going to try, I'm not going to raise my hand, I'm not going to volunteer for that. I'm going to hold myself back. For entrepreneurs, I'm not going to take that risk. I'm going to play small, because as long as I play small, I never have to confront, right? What if I fail? And what if that means that I really do suck and I'm not good enough. And so perfectionists tend to avoid putting themselves in situations where they might be confronted, really with something that kind of really gets up their sense of self worth.
Katelyn:
Yes. Yeah. And even from the acceptance aspect of this as well to just putting yourself out there and the risk that people might not like what you have to say or they might not accept you in some way and the just the intense emotions that come with that and avoiding taking the risk because of that part as well too. It makes so much sense. Can you explain this on just a very brain based level like what is our brain doing from a primal reaction standpoint with this- what's happening?
Camila:
Yeah, I mean, at our most primal reaction, it's you know, we got fight flight or freeze. It's the survival or stress response that I like to call it, where the brain picks up any potential threat or danger in our environment. And right back in caveman time, that threat might be like a mountain lion is about to eat you. But now in our society, that threat really is our social currency. All right, any instance that my boss might be disappointed with me, right, the threat goes up any suggestions that my coworkers might throw me under the bus on this project to save their butts. Any little sign or incident that my friends are losing interest in me, and they don't want me to hang out with them. So we're always kind of like being acutely aware of these. And it's, it's kind of automatic. The way our bodies work, it's actually quite amazing. If any of you want to Google polyvagal theory, this is where a lot of a lot of this is coming from. And so the thing with that is, is because it's such a primal, Primal reaction system in our bodies, we can't control it, it happens automatically, right when that threat system gets activated, and that's why chronic stress is such a problem, because people don't realize that they're basically always activating their sympathetic nervous system day in and day out at work, and they're never giving their bodies a chance to really recover and sooth This is also why I've, I've worked with a lot of clients that once they worked through the trauma and anxiety, and they were able to teach their bodies how to calm down and soothe itself, they started losing a lot of weight, because they were no longer had that constant stream of cortisol, the stress hormone, keeping their bodies inflamed. And so when that system in the brain gets triggered, it's your I call it like you're on, like you are on, you've got your foot on the gas pedal, you're ready to go, what do I need to do to fix this, what I need to do to make it better your brain is just second guessing, like all the woulda, coulda shoulda is like, this needs to be done that needs to be done. And it's just really hard to get to a place where you're now using your frontal, the front part of your brain, which is the logical, rational part. That's, that's the hard part in all of this, when your primal part of your brain is in high gear, the front part of your brain isn't really engaged. So I tell people like that's actually the goal of therapy. Like how can we put the brakes on that sympathetic nervous system response and amp up and strengthen that frontal lobe that is the thinking part of your brain response? How do we do that?
Katelyn:
I mean, seriously. Do you have any, like best practices, favorite tools, action items, one or two things that you can offer this community to be able to really confront this.
Camila:
It really is a two pronged approach, which is behavioral and cognitive and obviously, that's the kind of therapy that I do. The behavioral piece is actually what you teach it, you have to learn to be aware of what's going on in the body. And so like, at its foundation, I spend a lot of time with clients who are like before we can manage your anxiety, I need you to learn to recognize it and identify it on a continuum because people either shut down and I'm not anxious, or they're super anxious, panicking, right zero to 100. They don't know enough about their bodies to even track that in between and like so how do you know when you're at a 40 on anxiety? People give me blank stares like Huh? What? Yeah, like from zero to 100? What's a 40 look like for you and or like I don't know. And so that very first step is learning to pay attention to the body, identifying what you're feeling where you're feeling it, what kinds of events and situations around your trigger it like for myself, in my own personal experience, I had to learn to sit with the uncomfortableness of cravings, right and feeling a craving and instead of just quenching that craving by stuffing whatever it was, I wanted in my mouth really being like, Where am I body? Am I feeling this? Why right now? What was just happening five minutes ago, an hour ago? What's happening is that I'm not caving into this craving and I'm feeling that building up. How does that feel? And this awareness it's so ironic. It's like once you stop fighting the feelings and the emotions you stop fighting against it and you finally like okay, let me listen to you. It's kind of like that nagging kid. Alright, they'll stop nagging. Yes, yeah. All right, the Family Guy clip is like mom. Oh, yeah. When you finally give it space and attention is when it stops nagging at you. So like, you know, that's always like you have to start there and when it comes to dealing with this, I think there's so much that comes with bodywork. I love bodywork, yoga, tai chi, because all of it is about teaching body awareness. And I think That is an integral part of working through any emotional issues that we might be carrying.
Katelyn:
I do too. And can I share my perspective with what you're sharing as well, too, so because I'd love to get your thoughts on what's coming up for me, I often, I mean, I'm speaking from my own personal experience, and just what I have witnessed with clients and what not. So often, this is where the avoidance comes back in as well, too, because it does, what you're describing, being able to first tune into how we're feeling in the body, it requires that emotional awareness, and it requires us to really confront our emotions. And so often, we just don't think that we have the capacity to feel the emotions, and sit in discomfort. And so we go into this avoidance mode and this perfectionism mode so that we can get out of that, because we just don't think we'll be able to handle it. And so it really is the practice of sitting in the discomfort, locating the discomfort in your body, really being able to have just the awareness like you're talking about with the cues in your body. But first, being able to actually say I can, I am capable of being in discomfort versus avoiding and running from it all the time.
Camila:
Yeah. And like, my yoga instructor always says it is healing to be dealing with what you're feeling. So whenever she would have us move into a pose, it's like she knows we're going to want to avoid it. And we're going to want to, like, lean out of it, because it hurts to go fully into it. And she would always say, it's healing to be dealing with what you're feeling whatever is coming up for you in this moment. Feel it breathe into it. And it's so funny how like, just that constant reminder from her classes and other parts of my life. Like I'm a stress eater, I eat my feelings. And that's kind of I always catch myself like, no, it's healing to be dealing with what I'm feeling. What am I trying to avoid?
Katelyn:
Yeah, and we store our feelings in our bodies, too.
Camila:
Yeah. I do want to just throw another little caveat there. I've also come to terms with it's for me, it's not just trying to avoid feeling, but it's also seeking out an emotion and, and for me, it's seeking joy, seeking pleasure seeking belonging, and I have sought that out and food when I don't feel like I have it in other areas of my life.
Katelyn:
Interesting. Yes. I love that. You just said that this aspect of satisfaction and your life.
Camila:
Yeah, there you go. That's a better word. Right. And I don't feel satisfied with my life. And I'm seeking this satisfaction through what I'm eating. Yeah, absolutely.
Katelyn:
Oh, my God. I mean, it's so important. And I appreciate you sharing that. I think that's a great check in for yourself. I do that as well, too. For everybody who's listening, when you go to your trigger to check in and say, okay, what's out of alignment? Where am I not meeting the satisfaction in my life? Where are things imbalanced? Where can I check in and possibly reposition some things in my life right now so that I am having these emotional needs being met in the other areas of my life, where it might be depleted? Yeah. So interesting. Um, let's, let's circle back to two things that are coming to mind. First of all, I am fascinated by this conversation around avoidance and perfectionism. Where does procrastination come into all of this?
Camila:
Oh my gosh, yes, right, procrastination is like the perfectionists number one. Let's get into it. There's a couple layers here for one. Every time you procrastinate, and you put something off, you get an immediate hit of relief. Right? You're stressed, I gotta do this. I got to do this in your brains like, Oh, you know, I'll just do it tomorrow and boom, relief. I don't have to worry about it till tomorrow. And that in and of itself can turn it into a very bad habit. Because you're training your body, how do I get relief from the stress and anxiety that I'm feeling? Well, you just put it off, and then you'll feel the relief. And so for perfectionists right? The anxiety and the stress is even higher, because it's not just the thing you're trying to do. It's all the fears and worries about how it's going to look and what others are going to think and what if There's a mistake. And, you know, what if I fail, and what if I mess this up. And so there's a stronger drive to want to put it off. So I'm, I'm trying to think of an example here, like of just writing a draft, a draft of a report or a presentation for work, right? Someone who's not a perfectionist will just write it and send it. And so what it's a draft, we're supposed to edit and change it. The perfectionist those like no, but it's got to be perfect. I know it's a draft. But before I send it, if anyone else looks at it, there can't be any spelling mistakes or can't read our mistakes. I need some really good flow, like I want to get great feedback on this. And they grow it into something so big, that then the brains like this are too stressful, let's put it off. And then there's that second. Another piece of this is that by putting it off, actually, it's a form of self sabotage that protects my ego interest. So if I give it my all, and I put all my time and energy into something, and then I turn it in, and I get bad feedback on it, I'm going to feel really bad about myself, right? Because I'm a perfectionist, I gave it my all and it wasn't good enough. But if I self-sabotage, and I pull an all nighter, and I turn it in, and I get bad feedback on it, then I get to say, Well, it's because I didn't have enough time. Not because there's anything wrong with me or I wasn't good enough. It's because I didn't have enough time. And I just pulled it together last night. If I had enough time, I'm sure it would be so much better. I always look at perfectionism as a way of trying to protect the self, it's a way of how I can protect my ego, procrastination is one way to do it.
Katelyn:
That's so interesting. And it makes so much sense. And I also love this example. So let's just say that somebody is starting to identify some of these traits in themselves of perfectionism. And they do have an opportunity like this coming up where there is something to do, let's just say they do have a report due or an email that they're sending out to their email list or, you know, perhaps they're turning into turning in something at work. And they're listening to this conversation saying, okay, thinking I have an opportunity to change the narrative here. How would you encourage them to move forward and take action in a non-perfectionistic way? What's a healthier way to approach something like this?
Camila:
Yeah. And so I'm sorry that every answer in psychology is it depends on the person, because different people are going to be motivated by different things, but like, just trying to give broad strokes. A couple of things come to mind, like one and I've worked on this myself is this idea of like, the shitty first draft of like, the purpose is to create a shitty first draft, like, just that little mindset shift for like, no, it's supposed to be bad. I'm trying to create something bad like, and so it kind of liberates me from all the rules of grammar, all the rules of spelling, all the rules of sentence formation, and I'm just bullet pointing, and I'm just doing a brain dump. And I'm just getting started. So for some people that in and of itself can work because it's just getting started. For others, not like their brain is like, but it's really not, it really does need to be good. And so that might not work. For others, you might have heard of like, the like the Pomodoro, scheduling, your techniques of like, putting time on the calendar, I'm only going to I'm giving myself 15 minutes, I'm only going to work on this for 15 minutes, whatever happens, whatever I can create, in that time, when that timer is up, I'm done. And I'm taking a break. Usually that forces you to get started, which is like that inertia is the hardest part to get over. And so that can help a lot with like procrastinators to kind of really schedule themselves these small, small time bursts linking it to a more positive outcome. So if I do this for 15 minutes, how am I going to reward myself? And it can't be with food. It needs to be with something that brings you joy and satisfaction in other ways. Unless you're hungry, and then yes. And then the other thing which actually has to do with a third reason why people procrastinate, right, because we talked about procrastinating because it gives stress relief. We procrastinate because it's self sabotage that lets me protect my ego. And we procrastinate because our gut is telling us that this isn't really what we want to do. And when you're a perfectionist, you're so used to pleasing people, you're so used to comparing yourself with others. You're so used to what everyone else is doing and what everyone else is thinking that you rarely pay attention to your intuition or your gut. And so sometimes if you keep procrastinating in the same area over and over, it might be your intuition telling you that you need to say no to something. And so, like, by sending an email out, maybe your intuition is telling you that you just need to hire someone to manage your social media. take that risk, stop being afraid you hate doing this kind of work, outsource it, hire someone to write the emails and focus on your genius and what you're really good at.
Katelyn:
So great, I'm so glad that you are saying that. I mean, I think that is so significant- focusing on what your gifts and your natural skills and abilities are versus forcing from a performative standpoint, like you're saying, Yeah, it's huge. Why does perfectionism correlate so highly with dieting, our relationship with food in a disordered way? Body image, discomfort, like all of these issues that we just talked about before? What's the link between this and perfectionism? Why do we do it?
Camila:
I would have to say, personal not professional opinion, because I don't have the research citations to back this up. And there's my perfectionist mind, you have to have the citation, if you're going to say that, to me, it always comes back to I'm not good enough. Right? The perfectionist is so afraid of failing and so afraid of being proven, being known by others. See, you really aren't good enough. You weren't cut out for this. And with the dieting culture, right, I also see that as like, one of the roots is like, I am not good enough. As I am right now. And I need to change my body, I need to change how I look. And only by doing so, will I somehow be good enough to then be confident and to then be outgoing. And then get to buy all the cute clothes. And there's that sense of like, only then will I be good enough. And so I do see that as like a common thread between perfectionism and body image and dieting. Yeah.
Katelyn:
I do too. What's the reframe there that you would offer somebody?
Camila:
Right. It's funny, because just telling someone But no, you are good enough- The brain objects, like my brain still really wants to reject that I'm still not 100% there. And I have to work on it actively and myself. So you can't just tell someone like But no, you're great. Right? And so I always start with a more neutral stance. And this is a phrase I use a lot with my clients and myself. And it's like, how about we just start with I'm human. And not that you're good enough, or you're better, or you're less than let's just start with I'm human. Let's start there. Can your brain accept that you're human? Yeah. Okay, what does it mean to be human? And that's when your brain is finally kind of given permission to like, really think about and accept that being human is actually quite messy. And it looks different for everyone. And there's such a diversity of what it means to be human and have human experiences. And that's an easier place to work from, than trying to force the brain to be like, but no, I am great. And I'm awesome. And I've got this and arraigns like, No, you don't know you're not.
Katelyn:
I love that you just said that. What's your opinion on affirmations and mantras?
Camila:
I like affirmations and mantras, but they need to be right for you. Right. So. Like, one of my affirmations that I use a lot for myself, especially for my perfectionism is “I did the best I could with what I have”. And for me, it's like what I had, the knowledge I had then the skills I had then the amount of sleep I had then the amount of energy I had then. So I always say that kind of mantra I did the best I could with what I had then, because that opens up for me like this more self-compassion. I'm not criticizing myself. I'm not beating myself up. I'm not demanding more of myself. I'm also not letting myself off the hook. Right like I know but I now know better. I can do better but like it really is important but it If you have like these affirmations or these mantras that are so far fetched that your brain just outright rejects it, that's when I work with clients to find something that your brain isn't just going to outright reject. And you work up from there. Yeah. So like money, money, mantra, right? One of my business coaches, like, No, you just need to like, write it on a card on your nightstand. And every morning, you'll be like, I'm gonna be a millionaire. And my brain was like, No, you're not. And she's like, you just need to do it long enough so that your brain accepts it. And I'm like, this is not working like this mantra or affirmation. It's my brain just like, No, you're not. And so when I changed it to, I can do one thing today to grow my business. My brain was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do that. Okay. And that kind of became like my mantra, like, what's one thing I can do today to grow my business for my eating? Right, you're going to lose weight and look like a beautiful supermodel. And my brain likes to write even gastric bypass them and get you they're never going to happen. So like that, like you are beautiful. And like, so for me, it was like, I can make at least one healthy decision today. And like having something like that, be kind to yourself motto, affirmation. And once you get used to that, then you can change it. Right, then you can tweak it as you progress in your own personal development. So I am a fan of mantras. I just ask the people I work with to double check if their brain is just outright rejecting. Oh, yeah, they're affirming.
Katelyn:
I am so glad that you said that. I think that's so important. And I know they're, they're so popular. They've become so popular in the past few years mantras and affirmations there, like all over Pinterest and everything, but I don't think that we're having the conversation around questioning if they're right for us or not, enough. So this is really valuable. Camilla, let's close this out. I just absolutely love this conversation. If you could share your top two takeaways, you might have already mentioned, what these are but what are two things that you would share with anybody who is really resonating with the fact that they are in perfectionism right now. It's something they've probably been dealing with for a while. What are two things that you feel like they can prioritize or take action with to just begin healing this part of their lives? Or becoming more aware of it? Is it more education? Is it an action step? What would you suggest?
Camila:
It's, it's funny, like the two things, gosh, I'm trying to keep this simple. The first one is, you will never be able to make changes in your life from a place of hate. So the self-judgment, the criticism, the beating yourself up, and I know, I get a lot of pushback with the whole life, woo-woo, self acceptance and self love. And what I just like people to know, it's like, you can't change from a hate you need to accept where you are right now. Because when you do that, then you give yourself the option to change. Change is no longer a requirement, a necessity of pressure that you have to change is now an option because I've accepted who I am, how I look and where I am. Love. So that would kind of be my first one is that you’ve got to work on getting to that place of acceptance before we can genuinely like change, long lasting change. Yeah. And then the second piece, and I would say is don't put your life on hold. Don't let your perfectionism or your body image steal your joy. Don't let your fear of failure steal your joy. Stop putting your life on hold. Take the risks that perfectionism is telling you not to do the things that the body image is telling you to avoid. Live your life.
Katelyn:
I love that. Mic drop- oh, it's so great. And to your point, the first thing that came to my mind when you said that is do the things that your perfectionism is telling you to avoid and really essentially stepping into your fears. You will survive. Mm hmm. Your brain is making you feel like you won't but you will. You will survive. You will be able to handle it. It is not going to cripple you. It's going to be a moment in time and the more we practice these moments, the more that we step into our fears, the more that we create more opportunities for for vulnerability, and that's when we really can just change the narrative in our mind that we won't be able to survive these tough things that we're putting off. So this is just extremely helpful, and insightful. I know that so many, so many people are going to resonate. I certainly do. I learned a ton in this conversation. And I just really appreciate you sharing your own personal story with us as well, too. And your expertise. You're incredible. Where can everybody find you and just get in your world and connect with you?
Camila:
Yeah, I'm on Instagram @Dr. Camilla Williams. And I also have a Facebook business page. Living Well, with CBT.
Katelyn:
Great, we'll connect it all in the show notes as well too. So it's easy for everybody. Thank you so much. Truly, this was just awesome. I so appreciate you.
Camila:
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.