Episode 071 Julie Fernandez: Connecting Trauma & Body Image
Episode 071 Julie Fernandez: Connecting Trauma & Body Image
In this episode we sit down with...Julie Fernandez.
As a trauma recovery coach, Julie helps people reclaim their bodies and build trust in their innate wisdom. Using tools and techniques from yoga, breathwork, mindfulness practices, Somatic Experiencing, dance, martial arts and other body-centered modalities, she invites the exploration of unsettled trauma in the body - helping people listen to and trust their bodies, attune to their real needs, and move through life with less stress and anxiety, and more peace and connection. Julie is passionate about empowering people to reconnect with their strengths and innate capacity to heal.
Julie's experience comes from working in domestic violence shelters and rape-crisis centers throughout New York City and Los Angeles, working with at-risk teenage girls and disadvantaged youth in Inner City schools and eating disorder centers. She is the primary trauma therapist on the Hope Integrative Psychiatry team in Los Angeles and the Lead Trauma-Informed Yoga Teacher Trainer and Curriculum Mentor for Exhale to Inhale, a non-profit organization that empowers survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault using the healing and grounding practice of yoga.
In this conversation we talk about:
Julie’s personal body image story- body dissociation at a young age
Her journey to her current career and the powerful work she is doing
The intersection of trauma and eating disorders
Practical tools for beginning to heal trauma
Julie’s experiences of yoga and her shifts to embrace true authentic happiness
Connect with our guest...
Resources we mention in this episode…
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TRANSCRIPTION Episode 071 Julie Fernandez: Connecting Trauma & Body Image
Katelyn:
Julie Fernandez. Hi, welcome. So happy to have you here.
Julie:
Thank you. So happy to be here.
Katelyn:
Definitely. So we have so much that we're going to dive into as you and I both acknowledged before we hit record. So let's just jump on in. And the first question that we ask everyone on the show is your first body awareness moment. So if you're open to sharing what that looked like for you, we'd love to hear and also how that shaped your relationship with your body and/or food moving forward.
Julie (body image story):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I thought this question was going to be easier to answer or like, it was going to be more clear. But I had a realization. I was going to say, like, oh, the first time I took a yoga class, and I was like, really in my body. But actually, it was much, much earlier than that, I don't even remember how old I was, I might have been like five or six. I remember, we were at a pool. And it wasn't at the pool. But like, that was the time when my family, we used to video record everything. And I remember, we were watching the video playback. And my swimsuit was a little bit big. And so my little boobie was exposed. And I was like five or six. So there was nothing there. Right? My family made such a big deal about it, and I literally, like shriveled up in the corner. And I felt so ashamed. And since then, I was so preoccupied with just covering myself up. And I didn't really even understand why. And as I think about it now as an adult, this makes so much sense, because I'd been dealing with sexual abuse in my earliest memories at three. And so, by that time, like, I'd already been violated in so many ways. And I think that, you know, it was another way of feeling exposed. And I think by that point, I didn't understand what was happening with me or, or to me. So I didn't put it together then at all. But I know that I did spend the majority of my life just trying to cover up and be super small, and not be seen. I didn't want any attention. And I and that's actually what led to my eating disorder. It wasn't to get skinny, it wasn't to be more attractive. It literally was because I wanted it to disappear. And I just didn't want to be big because I didn't want to be seen. So that I think was the beginning of my eating disorder. Because I do remember as a kid, not eating food, like my school lunches, and my mom would get upset, but I didn't have an explanation for it. I just kind of brushed it off. So I don't know, I think that that's where it all really started. Yeah, it's really interesting to think back on it because I haven't actually pinpointed it.
Katelyn:
That's so powerful that you're bringing up this feeling of shame. And even in hearing your story, I can just feel that in my stomach and the embarrassment that comes with that as well too. And shame is such a powerful emotion and to have that sense memory of that experience. And also acknowledging the eating disorder that came after that to kind of cover up and stay small and not feel exposed. It makes so much sense. I'm curious, what was the timeline like that for you with starting to develop your eating disorder in this first body awareness moment?
Julie:
You know, it wasn't like a decision I made to not eat. I think I was just so disconnected from my body that I didn't care to put food in it. You know, it was kind of like that. So I do remember as a kid being a troubled eater. I didn't like to eat, I would be forced to eat like the bare minimum. My mom would make a huge meal and I would just eat a tiny bowl of like white rice and nothing else. I don't really remember, like when it started, but when I realized that I did have an eating disorder, I was probably 13 or 14. Because I literally wasn't eating. And I was like a size double zero. And that's small for me, like, I'm not meant to be that. And, I was having to wear like three pairs of jeans at one time, because I didn't want anybody to see how I was withering away. In fact, it was when I got dressed for school, and my clothes weren't fitting me in in such a drastic way that I was like, Oh, I think this is not normal. I think I have a problem. I don't want to tell anybody. So I'm just gonna, like hide it and like, do what I can to like, not bring attention to this.
Katelyn:
So did you have the language for it when you were 13?
Julie:
I really did not.
Katelyn:
I didn't either. And that's why I'm always curious about this question. I'm sure it's probably a bit different now, but I struggled with an eating disorder from middle school. And I remember the first time that I actually acknowledged that it was an eating disorder. I was in a health class watching a video on eating disorders, or maybe like a Lifetime movie or something like that, where I actually saw it being associated with a term, what was it like for you?
Julie:
I remember learning about eating disorders, and like, anorexia specifically, like, that was the one I remember, I didn't know that name and that term. But I lived my life so disconnected from the real world that I never related it back to me. And so I never connected that with myself, in my experience, but I did know of it. And I think, if I remember correctly, you know, people judge and especially like, girls in middle school, and I would judge others and be like, Oh, my God, you know, and not in a bad way. It was just really, like, out of concern, like, Oh, my God, she probably has an eating disorder, like, Oh, my gosh, you know, and like, actually concerned, so I could so easily see it in somebody else, but never in myself. And so like I knew what it was, but not not like, I could look in the mirror and see it in myself. You know what I mean?
Katelyn:
Oh, yeah, I do. Absolutely. And it sounds like you were pretty atune, even though it might not have been necessarily in your body. But just that perception that you're describing is so common within people who struggle with eating disorders, and also the avoidance and the just you kind of reflecting what you knew about yourself intuitively, in somebody else as well, too. So that's really interesting. How did it manifest beyond middle school and into high school, college or adulthood?
Julie:
So it was interesting. So when I was 15, I actually passed out. I was with my cousin, my aunt, and my little cousin, her son, and we were out shopping. And I remember being at the store and feeling just not well. I mean, even before we got to the store, I was like, feeling very faint. And this was common for me, I would always feel dizzy. I thought it was normal. This is my normal thing. And this is of course from being undernourished and because of all the trauma and all this stuff. And so actually at the store, I ended up passing out and had a seizure. I ended up waking up in the hospital and I was put on an IV. I was in the hospital for like a week. They were running tests and all this stuff and I don't even understand. I still don't understand and my family is there. They don't really ask questions, so they can't even tell me what the doctor said was wrong with me like they don't know anything. And when I was that age, I didn't know to ask questions or anything like that. The point is, I ended up leaving the hospital having gained weight. And, and I think it was like from the IV or whatever it was. So I was a little bit, I was more normal, I should say, like, I plumped out a little bit. But after that, I was spending the summer in New York with my family with my grandmother. And grandma started feeding me all the time and started making sure that I was eating and like, I always had like a plate of food. And I was, like, basically forced to eat. And then, I came back from summer vacation, and I gained like maybe 15 pounds during that time. So when I came back to school, I was being called names- it was awful. A lot of guys actually really liked it. Because I was thick, right? And that was like, it grosses me out thinking about it. But it brought me attention, both negative and positive. So that worsens the relationship with myself. Like I was so confused about it, that I literally kind of just became paralyzed in that I kind of give up and like, I don't know what to do with myself, because I hate it. I hated everything about myself. So it's like I would eat, but then, like, get mad at myself for eating. And then I would not eat and get mad at myself for not eating. And it was just like, anything that I did, it was just wrong. It was just, it was such a hard time for me because I literally hated everything about myself. And I just met my basic needs so that I can just stay alive. I just ate enough to say that I ate and and like, engaged enough with people to say that I was here. But I really wasn't here. I wasn't present. I didn't want to be a part of this world.
Katelyn:
I mean, from what you shared, it makes a lot of sense, right? Like you acknowledging that you weren't eating from a very young age to avoid attention and making that connection and then getting the exact thing that you're trying to avoid- the attention when you start eating and start refeeding yourself and nourishing. It sounds like a pretty aggressive way as well too, which God that's, that's so traumatic in itself. I'm just curious, and please feel free to share as much or as little as you want to with this. But I just want to acknowledge what you shared at the beginning of your story, being sexually abused from the age of three, did you make the connection at all through any of this that it was really kind of rooted from there? Or how did that play into the desire to just not be seen if at all?
Julie:
Definitely not. I mean, I knew that I didn't want attention, because I didn't like the attention I was getting from men. And this was like my whole life. So you know, from 3 to 10 I was being abused by my step grandfather, from 9 to 18 abused by a family friend. And, then I would just, you know, walk around anywhere, I would just get so much attention like cat calls all the time. It was sickening. I didn't want the attention because I was getting like unwelcome attention from men. But I also didn't realize, I know this might sound dumb, I didn't realize that I was being sexually abused. I didn't realize it was a bad thing. Like I knew I didn't like it. I didn't know that this was like wrong. Because my family has normalized this behavior so much that for me, I thought it was just a part of life. And I just had to get used to it. So I didn't really understand that this was like trauma until I was 22. When maybe even not actually was after that I didn't really but at 22 that stands out to me. I took a yoga class for the very first time. And that was the worst experience ever. Because it was the first time I felt my body in that way. Because for my whole life, I've had to endure so much abuse, I got really good at dissociating, and just not being in my body. And that was also part of like, the eating disorder. It was a way for me to be like, I knew what to expect with that feeling of being hungry and then getting to the point where I just like, numb out. But this was like, all the pain and all the discomfort in my body, I felt it in that one class. And it was awful. But it It also got me really curious. It was like, wait, what is happening? Why am I feeling- like yoga is supposed to feel good? I heard so many good things about yoga. Why didn't I have a good experience? And what is wrong with my body? And then realizing like holy shit, like, I don't really know my body, and I don't really like it. And I never felt this before. Like, what is this? And so I started getting curious. And that's what actually got me to explore yoga even more. And then years later, when I did my yoga teacher training, because yoga helped me so much with my body and feeling comfortable with my body and having a good relationship with my body. So that actually was what helped me with my eating disorder. Wanting to feed her well. And understanding that there are certain things you eat that don't feel good, there's certain things you eat that kind of feel good. And so I wanted to explore that more. So anyway, fast forward to when I was getting my yoga teacher training. And I realized and understood that, like, there's a science behind why yoga was so helpful for me. And so I wanted to help others heal through yoga. And then somewhere along the way, I heard this word trauma. And I was like, wait, what is that? When I realized Holy shit, I have trauma. And, also, like, the people that I'm working with have trauma, too. I was working with at risk teenage girls, and youth throughout New York City. And so anyway, that's when I made the connection of like all this trauma. And that's why I don't have a good relationship with my body. And that's why all of these things have happened in my life. Like little by little I started making those connections, but it wasn't like a big aha moment, I would say that would be the closest and it's just acknowledging that I went through things that I shouldn't have gone through. And that's why I've hated myself. And I've had a miserable life that was as close to the connection that I made, but never not the specifics until much later. That's a lot of information.
Katelyn:
Oh, no, I mean, I can relate to so many of the things that you're sharing. And I know that feeling like when you're finally able to name something. And labels have such a double standard, right? Like they're so problematic, but they're also so helpful when you can actually use them to name what you're experiencing and feel like you have a word for something. So to be able to actually use the word trauma for so many of the things that you've mentioned in your story and just your experience living. That's so powerful. I can only imagine how that must have felt for you.
Julie:
Yeah, I mean, well, it helped to guide me, like put me on the right path. I didn't know where I was going. I didn't know what to do with the information. But now it felt like I was on, like, more solid ground, rather than like, trying to pave my way. Like, it's like, oh, there's a street for that. Go down that street, you know, like, so it just kind of steered me in the right direction. I still didn't know where I was going. But it was definitely helpful.
Katelyn:
What do you feel like was the most helpful or empowering part of being able to acknowledge trauma and how that impacted your relationship with your body? I know that you said that there was a string of lightbulb moments kind of wrapped up in this part of your story, but was there anything that really stood out in terms of learning about how traumas stored in the body that you can remember?
Julie:
I think for me, it was kind of understanding. Or maybe it was just like the realization of I don't have to continue feeling so badly about myself and in my body and in my life. I think it was more that there was a sense of hope that my life can be different, that I'm not stuck living a miserable life.
Katelyn:
So it was almost permission for you. It sounds like.
Julie:
Yeah. I love that actually. Yeah, that makes more sense. It really was permission to be happy, and find what that means.
Katelyn:
So how did you find what that meant? What were some of the next steps that you took and tools that you used during that time of your healing?
Julie:
I didn't know what happy was until maybe like five years ago. But I definitely was searching for it. And yoga was a big tool for that. You know, yoga was really a practice for me to be in my body and learn how to feel comfortable being in my body. And I will also say yoga didn't get me there. I didn't arrive there through yoga. But that was like my first car. And it really did change my relationship with my body, I was much more comfortable being in my body, I was more excited about being in my body, and curious about it. And so it really did change the relationship that I had with myself. Which then ultimately led to my happiness, right. I don't know that there was like any one tool it really, because it really was like what led to my happiness was me feeling safe and comfortable in my body. Because that was the thing that always made me so miserable. It's like, what is the point of being here? If I'm so uncomfortable?
Katelyn:
That makes so much sense. So what are some of the shifts that you've made to really embrace this true authentic happiness that you're sharing with us right now?
Julie:
Like, what are the changes that I've made in my life?
Katelyn:
Yeah, like, what are some of the things that you've just given yourself that permission to do or fully embrace?
Julie:
You know, the simplest thing it's like, literally, when I show up in a room, like allow myself to be seen, like not hiding. Speaking, when I feel the need to speak, because I would just hold back all the time. Like people thought that I was mute for a very long time, because I was super shy. I'm not actually a shy person. There was so much fear there and so much discomfort. So really, it's just permission to show up as my true full self. I am a big bright personality. And I allow myself to be that way. But I do think that and I still have to- it's a practice, right? Like I still have to work on it or be conscious of it. Because I do sometimes try to go back to not being seen and and like being okay not being seen. I went on a hike yesterday with a good friend and she invited a couple other girls and so we were outside and everybody's getting to know each other they're so great and I was just quiet for like the first hour where I wasn't saying anything and in my head I was like, Are you comfortable with this? Like why are you being so quiet? Why don't you want to be seen or what's going on? I noticed these old patterns coming up. And I have to remind myself that you know, it's okay to be seen like that. I'm okay with that. I'm comfortable with that. So, yeah, I think it really is just about giving myself permission to be myself and be present and enjoy what I'm taking part in in that moment, whether it's a hike solo or with others, whether I'm having dinner with somebody or whatever, just be present and be a part of the world, I think that's what it is, is like I feel isolated for so long. And I have that tendency. And so anything for me, it's like being a part of the world. And that is okay. It's actually fun here sometimes. Actually, it is most of the time.
Katelyn:
No, I can relate. And you know, it's so interesting, Julie, I can relate to this personally, and the concept of being present, being just mentally present with yourself with other people feeling like you can give your full attention to an activity or a conversation or whatnot. That's something I struggled with for a really, really, really long time. And it's probably the top concern that I hear from most of the clients that I support. And what's so interesting about hearing you express this for yourself, and then really giving yourself that permission to be seen is it's just a distraction. Like the food that we're focusing on, or our bodies that we're focusing on, at least in the realm of my community, and clients and myself- that's the distraction from really being seen. And the root is really that fear of what happens when you are seen? What happens when you give yourself that full permission to just be in the moment and be in life? And what's the risk there? And then possibly, the trauma that might be lingering around as well, too, that people might not be able to really associate with or name just because it's just not talked about so much. How do you feel about that?
Julie:
I mean, I completely agree, I do believe and this shows up in the work that I do too. And we're going to people who struggle with eating disorders. That as with any other coping mechanism, right, it's an attempt to control the outcome or the situation and make it predictable. And so when you say like you mentioned, the word risk, and like the trauma and like what might come up and all of that like it, that this is just the tool- like the the food and in all of them in different ways that we use it, it is just the tool that we use to try to control the outcome. And, and just make life a little bit more predictable in that sense, because life is so unpredictable. And so yeah, I think that I mean, there's a lot beneath that.
Katelyn:
Yeah, it's super complex. I love this whole conversation and this theme. I'd love to hear about the work that you're doing now. So I know you mentioned before that you worked with at risk youth in New York and LA, is that something that you still do now? And also how does that weave into your story in terms of trauma informed care, and the career that you have now and everything?
Julie:
Yeah, so I started off working with at risk youth in teaching yoga. And that was in New York City.
Katelyn:
Real quick, before you go on- what do you mean by at risk youth?
Julie:
Kids who come from a really adverse background, right. So whether they come from, like a really tough community, or have experienced issues at home or things like that. And so just underserved youth essentially. They're not really put in the category of like, traumatized youth, but they're at risk of being traumatized, like having experienced trauma, but it's actually old trauma. So it's just waiting for the system to not have to worry about them. But anyway in that case, so I started off teaching yoga, just going into schools teaching yoga and bringing them to like the yoga studios and creating programs where I make yoga accessible to everyone because these kids can't afford it, right. But that's where it started and then taking that work in domestic violence shelters and rape crisis centers throughout New York City. When I moved here to LA, I continued the work in the shelters and then started working at eating disorder clinics here in LA. And then just like teaching yoga, then my work has evolved. And I studied somatic experiencing and expressive arts therapy and, and started creating my practice and my work based on that, and still using yoga, but I incorporate a lot of different modalities in the work that I do. So right now I have a private practice. So I work with people individually, one on one, I'm helping them to recover from their traumas. And I see many different things showing up. You know, whatever is the experience it's actually not, that's not the problem. And that's not actually the thing to work with. Because, I mean, I'll explain actually, what I often say, it's not about what happened to you, it's about how you hold on to what happened to you. So I, that's what I help people work through, without getting so stuck in the story of like, why did I get here. That's important to put the pieces together. But, you know, if somebody comes in and has OCD or whatever it is, it's like, again, that's your attempt to control- where did you lose control in your life? And like helping them to understand that. And that's how we put the pieces together. But we don't have to dive into the horror stories that we've all experienced. But like eating disorders, come up a lot. Because, you know, that's usually one of the symptoms, one of the ways that trauma manifests. And again, in my students, like I said before, it's really an attempt to have some sort of control in your life. You know, I can't control what this guy does to me, but I can control what I put in my body. You know, that was an example. And I in terms of just things that we can't control. I mean, it's probably most things in life that we can't control. There's like a very small percentage of things.
Katelyn:
And I can relate to that. And it's still a daily practice for me to just let go of not being able to control and not be afraid of change and uncertainty and all of the things and yeah, there's so much there. I'm curious how the intersection of trauma and eating disorder really shows up? And just to clarify for everybody listening, trauma is stored in the body. So the semantics of that, can you explain that a bit more and how that relates to control? If you have any stories or examples that you're open to sharing that'd be awesome.
Julie:
Trauma is the physical response to an emotional or mental experience. And so what I mean by that is, somatically, which is the understanding that our physical body, our thoughts, and our emotions are all one interconnected system, right. So back to what happens in trauma is when we perceive a threat, whether it's real or not, our body automatically goes into fight or flight. So we have a physical reaction first, before I sit here and ask my thoughts about it. How do I feel about this thing that's happening? What actually happens first is I am prepared to get to safety, whether it's by running or fighting, but are we seeing each other running and fighting all the time? No, we hold that back because of whatever circumstances right, it's not always ideal to literally run or to literally fight. So we hold all that energy in our bodies. Because our bodies are physically prepared to do those things. So our muscles tense up, and the blood flow goes to the extremities. And there's a lot of energy that goes to completing this action of fight or flight. And a lot of that energy is actually coming from our digestive system, because it takes a lot of energy to digest our food. But if I need to run away from this bear, that's right here, I'm not worried about digesting that pizza that I just had for lunch, I need to get away from this freaking bear. So digestion stops. And if we get to safety, if we don't discharge any of this excess energy, our body, our nervous system is not going to get the signal that we're safe once again- that, we can get out of fight or flight. So what's happening is a lot of us stay in that activated state. And digestion stays running at a slower pace. So it actually makes it very uncomfortable in our digestive system. And a lot of people who have experienced trauma actually have a lot of gastro issues. So what I'm seeing, and the connection that I've made is like, all of my clients, I think maybe, like 97%, it's a really high number come in, mainly because of digestive issues. And it really does affect their life. And because to them, it seems so out of control, like something that seems irreparable like they're never going to be able to get away from this issue. They start to control and find ways to control. So I've noticed a lot of people who just don't want to eat, because anything that they eat causes a lot of distress. Or like they eat, but then because it causes a lot of issues, they'll then like, throw it up. And this causes a lot of disordered eating, because they don't understand what's going on inside.And I might be overly simplifying all this stuff. I do believe that everybody can heal. And, and so I like to simplify it in, in these terms, because I want people to be like it is possible. But if we get the nervous system functioning correctly, the digestive system can get back on track. And then we can start to repair the way that we like, eat and take care of ourselves in that way. So yeah, I
Katelyn:
Just from what you're sharing, this sounds like a cycle that is so hard to get out of. Because if I'm seeing this, in my mind, let's just say a traumatic event causes all of this trauma to be stored in the body and these physical manifestations, particularly in digestion. And that can lead to disordered eating or it can be vice versa as well too. And there's a lot of research on that. But at the same time if you're going through disordered eating or the eating disorder, that kind of creates this host of trauma as well too which keeps you stuck in terms of the tools that you're using to just stay safe the only way that you know how at that point. And so it's like the trauma and the way that you know how to cope with trauma at the time kind of coincides in a really unhelpful way until you regulate your nervous system. Am I hearing you correctly?
Julie:
Yeah. And I'll say too, our bodies respond the same way under stress. So it doesn't have to be a trauma.
Katelyn:
Yeah, well, for everybody who's listening, Julia and I both agreed before we hit record in this conversation, that we're both really passionate about de-stigmatizing trauma. And there's a lot of resistance to associating with trauma. But in reality, trauma is a pretty broad scale in terms of traumatic events. You just mentioned stress, kind of having a similar effect. So what's your perspective on traumatic events that might not be associated with trauma necessarily, like little t traumas? Do you have anything that comes to mind that anybody who's listening might be able to associate with?
Julie:
Oh my gosh- all of these things, right? Yeah, I mean, so trauma has been defined by so many different people. The simplest definition that I'll use right now, it's like, when our capacity to cope has been overwhelmed. That is a trauma. So simple. And that could be anything. And it's like, Okay, I'm having a bad day, so I'll actually be super honest, I am. I'm getting ready to go to visit my family and friends in New York. One of my really good friends is getting married this week. And so I'm not going to be working on Thursday and Friday. And so what I did, and not really noticing that I did this, but the amount of work and everything that I would do normally in five days, I just squeezed it into two and a half days. And that is sick. Like this morning, I almost had a breakdown. Because I just didn't understand how I was going to like, even take a break to use the bathroom today. And it was that kind of thing where it kind of also sent me into a spiral. Because then I was upset that I did this to myself when I like, preach all the time like Don't do this. And I'm like, I just did it. And I'm glad that this happened because you know, I need a wake up call like I'm human too and this is just like my back to reality. And like Julie, keep practicing your self care, right?
Katelyn:
Yeah, I was just gonna say that. I love that you're sharing this in real time, because you are having a human experience. And it doesn't matter what you're passionate about sharing with your clients and your community, you're still susceptible to the struggles as well, too. It just probably looks a little bit different at this point in your journey.
Julie:
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So, the point is, like, my schedule has been super crammed. And when a friend asked me if I wanted to get together soon, I blew up. And it was like a bad overreaction, right? She didn't know this- this was like my own little breakdown that I have. But that is an example- like, my capacity has been overwhelmed. And my body, my nervous system, like my insides, couldn't take it. And so I had a little mini breakdown. And if I didn't allow that breakdown, and if I didn't check in, because I know, I'm aware of how that showed up on my body and like the tension and all of that, that I had to move that through like shaking literally, like shake it out. So that I can come back to reality and be like, Alright, how do I fix this situation because that didn't feel good. But that is like a really simple example, like if I didn't know how to address that. And I would have maybe added that to meet up with my friend or continue to just keep piling on to my schedule. Like my nervous system perceives that as that stress. And and if, like, if that stays there over time that then leads to like the traumatic energy because what creates the what we're calling trauma, trauma and the body is that this energy that was accumulated to meet a threat or to meet a challenge, when that energy stays stuck, and we're not able to discharge, that's what then leads to traumatic. And all it is, is like an accumulation of this overwhelm. If we just keep adding more and packing on more, then we're gonna have all of that energy stuck in the body. And that's what's gonna lead to all of these diseases and disorders and all of that.
Katelyn:
That's interesting. It's also interesting, just hearing your story and how important it was for you for so long to not be seen and not be heard. And being at this place now, where you clearly have a bit too much on your plate right now. And that manifesting in this outburst where you are being seen and you are being heard and not feeling like you have to apologize for that. But also using that as a checking point to recognize something is a little bit off. This example that you're sharing creates so much empathy. Because when when we receive an outburst like that, from someone else, it's almost never about the thing that we're doing. Sometimes it is, of course, but it's really a manifestation of what the other person is going through. And that can feel really sticky sometimes and uncomfortable, especially for people who are really averse to confrontation in general as well, too.
Julie:
Oh, yeah. It's usually never really about us. You have to look at the other person, like imagine how uncomfortable they are, that they then have to respond in that way. So like, you know, really, so we were talking a little bit before I started recording about being trauma informed and why it's important to be trauma informed. And I always come back to like, if you work with people, if you're around people, then you're around trauma- you're working with trauma. And, being trauma informed is really about understanding the prevalence of trauma, understanding the effects of trauma, and that then allows us to respond in a better way. And when we're trauma informed, you really can go from asking what is wrong with you, or even like me, and we can actually ask the question, what has happened to you? Like, if somebody comes in and they're like, a little bit bitchy, it's like, man, they must have had a bad day. What happened to them that made them respond in this way doesn't mean that they're a bad person. Or a little bitchy, like, I mean, I was just thinking about this in the car. I was like, man, I become a raging bitch when I'm stressed. And I hate that about myself. But it's like, if I know that I need to, like work on my stress and how I manage stress. And like, there are times where I don't do so well with that. Because if there's something really big going on, and like right now, I'm excited and preparing to go to my friend's wedding that got postponed three times because of COVID. Right? So I'm like, really excited and planning for that. But then I kind of lost track of everything else that was happening, and I let it pile up, which I normally don't. And so when I saw myself reacting in this way, and again, it wasn't outward, it was very much inward, like I kept it to myself, but I still didn't like it about myself, like it didn't feel good inside. And, and this is actually how I was when I was younger. I was like a bitch, I was, like, I was nasty. But looking back, I didn't like myself about it, like, but it was also interesting, like, I hated myself. And every time I would be like a bitch, I would get so upset I would go into the corner and hide in just, like, drown in shame for responding in that way to somebody. And so I spent the majority of my adolescence resenting myself for that. When I started to understand what trauma was, then I was like, oh, it makes sense that I was that way. First of all, I was hurting so much inside. And the reason why I was reacting that way to people was because I didn't know how to contain this feeling inside. And it would just manifest in that way. So it literally had nothing to do with me. Anybody else, but how much pain I was in internally. And then it was also like my fight response, like that was a way for me to protect myself. Because if I was nice to people, they would get close, and then they would hurt me. So it was also a way to protect myself. But again, I wasn't conscious of these things during, it's now looking back understanding these behaviors. So it's never about what is wrong with you. It is about what has happened to you, that is making you respond and behave in this way now.
Katelyn:
Yeah, totally. And so many things can trigger that response as well, too. And I know, we could go on a whole other tangent about triggers and trauma and all those things. But I think it's so important to become aware of triggers and have tools and practices to utilize when triggering moments come up for traumatic related events. Julie, a couple of final questions- I want to be mindful of our time together, and everyone who's listening. This is just such an awesome conversation. So for anyone who's listening, we've kind of acknowledged trauma is all around us. S for anybody who's listening, who is really getting the nudge that they've got some deeper things to explore, but maybe they're not ready to reach out and work with somebody, and they just want to start building in more tools or practices to support their own trauma healing, do you have any suggestions, or tools that you just absolutely love, or would recommend?
Julie:
You know, I would definitely start with something that's going to get you in the body and move to get this energy to continue flowing, because again, the issue arises when this energy stays stuck in the body. And so we really want to get that energy moving out. So walking is nice. If you want to do something a little bit more intense, you know even yoga can be considered intense, right? So, yoga is nice, dancing, and nothing crazy, like dancing with yourself and your mirror. Anything that gets you in your body and moving. So I think it's about learning to develop this relationship with the body and really listen to what it's saying and what it's needing.
Katelyn:
I love that work. Yes. I'm having a major flashback right now being in my own yoga teacher training. And when we got to the section on yin yoga, which I know, you know, this, but for everybody who's listening who might not, it's holding poses for a few minutes at a time. And so it's really, really uncomfortable at times, and it forces you to be super present with your body. I had a crazy reaction to that- it was so uncomfortable. And I resisted it so much. And in the end, it was probably the thing that I needed the most. I want to speak to that, because I think that there's a lot of people in this community, probably both of our communities who are using overexercise as a tool, whether it's, you know, combined with their eating disorder or just on their own to avoid something. And really what you're speaking about right now, which I'm hearing is leaning into being in your body and movement that grounds you and gets you in your body in a different way versus the thing that you might be using to avoid or resist that embodied experience. Am I hearing you correctly?
Julie:
Yes, absolutely. So because I did that I was running and really like, pushing myself and doing like really, really heavy weightlifting. And I do heavy weight lifting now and I do some running and stuff but it's different. It's not to escape, it's not to cause more pain. I was using it as punishment before. Because that pain or that discomfort from those things was easier to be with than the actual discomfort that was in my body. And really what we want to do is fix. But it's not about that. But like, how do we find comfort in the body? Right? If something's uncomfortable, if something's not working? Well, can we get to the root of that and figure out what it needs instead of just ignoring it, or suppressing and using these tools, like, you know, really intense hard workouts or whatever it is to ignore. So instead, can we develop a healthy, safe and loving relationship with our bodies? And you can start by just like, walking? You can walk, you can just sit sometimes right. And only drink water.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I know. There's so many grounding practices that we do every day, but to really use the most tools intentionally and being present- that is so uncomfortable. It was for me for a long, long, long time, and still is sometimes honestly.
Julie:
You know, and one thing I'll say to you- and I, every time I say this, I like cringe. Sometimes I'm like, if somebody were to tell me this, I'd be so mad. But it's going to be uncomfortable, any of these practices will be uncomfortable until they're no longer uncomfortable. But it's like you know, anything you do for the first time, even if it's like your first year, you like you love yoga now, but remember how it felt maybe the first time or like any new activity that you do, it's weird and awkward and uncomfortable. And then the more you do it, the more comfortable it is, and the more comfortable you are doing it and, and so just because you know, this might feel uncomfortable to like be in your body in a different way doesn't mean that it's the wrong thing to do.
Katelyn:
Yeah, if anything, it's probably the right thing. The other question I wanted to ask is the concept of trauma informed care- if you're in a profession that is a human to human helping, healing profession, or if you just want to be a little bit more informed about how to relate to people in your life, who are also experiencing trauma, do you have any tools or tips for people to begin utilizing in their own life almost in just a holding space capacity or beyond that?
Julie:
What I would say is, being trauma informed, is another way for us to see ourselves and to be able to see each other. It helps us to understand ourselves in this complex human experience, and helps us understand our bodies and our brains' response and reactions to the complex human experience. So I would say that it really does start with us. So paying attention to yourself, and how you respond and react to certain things. So like me, for example, when I fill my calendar all the way, right, and like I have zero free time throughout the day, I feel this really intense sensation in my stomach and in my chest. And that doesn't feel good. So I'm going to do that a little bit differently, right. And so when I understand that, I get uncomfortable with certain things, or like, certain things affect me, then I would have more understanding, more compassion for others when they may respond or react in a certain way, right? It's like what we were talking about earlier, when someone lashes out at us or something like that, it's actually probably more about them than it is about us. And that is a trauma informed world. That's trauma informed care. Instead of reacting to that we can have a little bit more kindness and compassion and hold a little bit more space for that. And I'm not saying accept bad behavior from people, but like to just have maybe a little bit more compassion and understanding and maybe ask like, Hey, are you okay? instead of like, you know, coming back with a nasty kind of remark or whatever it is, but it's just like, hey, it seems like you're not doing so well. And maybe no space or I'm gonna walk away, I'll be over here if you need something right like It's just a different way to relate to people where, again, we just get curious about like, what's what's beneath that? That barrier?
Katelyn:
Yeah, totally. And also from what I'm hearing you say, Julie, it's not your job to be everybody's therapist or everybody's role model or anything. But starting to have this understanding for yourself, gently creates this opportunity to begin to understand others. It's not saying you've got to go back to school for this.
Julie:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a beautiful way that you said it. I teach trauma informed training so come join me and my trauma informed yoga training. There are other people who teach trauma informed trainings, you know, you don't need to spend a lot of time here. To know yourself and how you relate and interact with the world can help you to relate to others and have more compassion, understanding for them. I love to hold space for ourselves and feel safer to hold space for others. And that's how we start to form a win-win. It's a win.
Katelyn:
Totally it's a much easier path of least resistance. When you're ready. Julie, you're fantastic. I have so enjoyed this conversation, and just appreciate the work that you're doing and your story and just everything that you brought to this hour that we spent together. Where can everybody find you? And I know you just mentioned your trauma informed yoga teacher training but how can people get connected?
Julie:
Yeah, so I have a website, mettahealingarts.com. And also on Instagram, @jules_metta. But yeahI try to post often on Instagram, and I try to keep my website up to date with all the workshops and training that I'm leading and then there's information about like one on one work, too, if you're interested in other group work that I'm creating. So there's a lot that's coming up soon. So it's a very exciting time.
Katelyn:
Super exciting, and we’ll link everything in the show notes too, so that everybody has access. But thank you so much. This has been a beautiful conversation. I really appreciate you.
Julie:
It's really beautiful. And it is so complex. And there's so much more to say about it. I hope it feels complete enough.
Katelyn:
It feels complete. And we'll just have to have you back on. There's many different rabbit holes you could go down. We'll see you next time on the show- to be continued.
Julie:
That sounds great. Thank you so much. This is so lovely. You're lovely.
Katelyn:
Thank you.
