Episode 99: Faith & Healing Sexual Shame With Maya Wilson
Episode 99: Faith & Healing Sexual Shame With Maya Wilson
In this episode we sit down with.... Maya Wilson.
Maya Wilson is a wife, mother, writer and educator. She is based in Atlanta, GA. She is passionate about community, justice, and my faith. She's self-published two poetry collections entitled Things I Wrote, and the Window and Revival. She is also the host of the podcast Tea•ology, a podcast about faith and culture. She is a certified public educator in Language Arts and Social Studies. In her spare time, she loves to get outdoors, read, and travel.
In this conversation we talk about:
Maya’s personal body image story- growing up in a black family and the impact of the media
Her personal reconciliation process involving sexuality, her body, and self worth
How Maya and her husband raise her daughter with language about relationships, love, bodies and sexuality
Reframing ideas of sex within her faith context
The power of investigating what we believe in and staying true to our values
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TRANSCRIPTION
Episode 99: Faith & Healing Sexual Shame With Maya Wilson
Katelyn:
All right, Maya Wilson. Hi. Welcome to the show.
Maya:
Hi, how are you? Nice to be here. I'm glad to be here.
Katelyn:
I'm so glad you're here. Let's just dive in. I cannot wait to have this conversation and get to know your personal body image story, your truth, all the things. So let's do it. The first question that we ask everyone is your first body awareness moment. So can you share what that looked like? For you that moment where you realized I'm in a body? Apparently, this means something in the world that I'm living in? How did that also shape your relationship with your body? Food yourself moving forward? What's your story?
Maya:
Yeah, I love this question. Um, so I would say like one of the big things that kind of shaped my body image work, were just some of the things that were said to me as a child. And I think they came from places of endearment, and maybe even like, trying to compliment me. But as a child, I used to hear those things and would wonder if that was normal for other girls my age. So one of the things that I would hear often as a little girl, when especially when I, you know, started to enter puberty was that I had big hips, or that I had full chest. And I grew up in the South. So it wasn't said like, that was like, Oh, look at them big ol hips. So look at that full chest. And I was a very docile child, I, you know, kind of quietly nod and take it as a compliment. But in the back of my head, I wonder, like, you know, is it normal for me to have a big chest or a big hips, and at that time, in our culture, like the trend of like, the trending body type was very slim. Not like, now we're like curves are kind of the celebrated things. So when I was growing up, I didn't really look like a lot of the girls that were glorified in our culture as like the ideal body type. So I very quickly was like, Okay, I'm not, you know, what's on trend, or what's on style at the moment. And for a lot of my high school career, I kind of really just struggled with my body image, I struggled with overeating, and then crash dieting, and then not eating at all. And just like kind of struggled really with celebrating my body, because I wanted to have a specific body type, which is the type that I saw being celebrated. So it really wasn't until probably about college that I really started to accept my body and really started to appreciate it and love it for what it was doing for me and still kind of building a better relationship with food. And not in a way where I felt like I had to earn to eat or punish myself when I gained a pound by not eating. And even just now after having my daughter, I'm having to reshape my idea with food, because when she was born, we had a lot of trauma surrounding her birth, she had to be in the ICU for a while. And food was a comfort for me in a time where it seemed like I didn't have a lot of control. So just even now reframing food in the sense that it can be a comforting thing. But it doesn't have to be my only coping mechanism when I'm feeling anxious or feeling sad or feeling out of control. So it's been definitely a journey with food. But I would say probably around 11, or 12 is when I kind of was like, Oh, my body is different. And it's something that I wasn't aware of until that moment.
Katelyn:
I can relate in my own personal experience to some of the things that you shared as well. And I know you grew up in Georgia, correct? Yeah. So the south, and I grew up in Florida, which was kind of a different kind of South and I know you probably are familiar.
Maya:
Totally different worlds, right? Yeah.
Katelyn:
Like Florida is the most like South East that you can get, but it's a pletely different culture. And so it's really interesting, because I also received some of those comments about like, oh, boobs and hips, and not really knowing what to do with them. And, you know, I did have some family that was more of that, like, deep south mentality. And so it was approached a different way. It was just, it was talked about more in that culture. But when you're 11 and a girl, it's like, well, what do I do with that? And then to your point, growing up and seeing all of these images around as well to for bodies that weren't necessarily that type. One thing that I want to ask you about is, I grew up in a white family, you're black, you grew up in a black family. So how did body type play an impact in your experience growing up, as well as seeing those bodies in the media as well, too?
Maya:
Yeah, that's a good question. Um, well, I would say that one of the comments that I used to get is that I had hips, like my grandmother, my dad's mom. And when I would go visit her, I remember distinctly, even as I grew up, I would walk in. And the first thing sometimes that she would comment on was like, Oh, I see your hips, oh, you getting thick. And I used to be like, well, then can I come in the house? Like, can you speak to me and tell me ask me how I am. But that that was, um, it may not be for every family of color. But I do know that in a lot of families in color, including my own weight, and the way that your body looks, is sometimes the currency of how well you're doing. So if you look overweight, or you look like you've gained weight, since the last family gathering, you are the topic of what's going on with you, or what's happening, are you struggling, like, you know, this or that. But on the on the flip side, I remember in college, when I started to lose a little bit of weight, I remember being told, like, oh, like my, you're getting too skinny. Like, kind of like this thing that I couldn't win. Sometimes, because it was like, if I, you know, look like I put on weight, you know, I was told like, okay, like, you know, you need to be careful about your weight. Because also, like we had, you know, health issues in our family, like my dad has had high blood pressure pretty much since I was a little girl. And, you know, people on and off, I'm sorry, there's like a whole tractor coming by my house. But anyway, um, there was, you know, issues in my family about you know, weight and things like that. So that was an area of concern. But again, like I said, like your weight was kind of currency for, you know, how well you were doing. And on top of that, like, just with my curves and things of that nature, I've I've always had them since, you know, I went through puberty, and I've learned to love them. But one of the things that I also kind of battled and you kind of mentioned it, like as a little girl, like being told you had big hips, and, you know, a big chest and then almost like there being like, a underlying, like, sexual like centralization to it. So I remember, like, you know, when I started kind of being more curvy as a little girl, like, you know, family members, like, you know, joking and saying, like, telling my dad like, oh, you need to make sure you get a shotgun at the house, or like, I bet the boys are lining up, but like, in my personal like, why if I was like, Oh, I'm not really dating a guy right now. Or, I'm not even really interested in really dating a guy right now. Like, is there something wrong with me? And just that kind of weird, like, sexualizing my body at such a young age. And not even just, you know, like, my academics are what I was interested in being the focus, but my body being the focus. So that's something that I'm aware of. Now, even as I speak to my daughter, or let other people talk to her or about her, I try to, you know, like, scurry away from the language because I think it even starts, I think I was aware of the sexualization at that age, probably 12 or 13. But I think it starts younger and younger, for girls, especially girls of color. The over sexualization of body starts so much younger, and girls have so much more to offer than just sex. So I just, I'm really passionate about reframing the way we talk about our daughters the way we talk about women in general. And it's okay to not always comment. You don't have nothing nice to say you don't have to say anything at all.
Katelyn:
Yeah, it's often better to just not comment at all.
Maya:
Yes, it is.
Katelyn:
Because you never know if somebody is you know, struggling with or if that's a trigger even talking about, you know, their sexual way. So, it's so interesting from your story. Maya it sounds like you and I have the same experience as well to the topic of weight and bodies and just this being a very normal dinner table conversation and families it sounds like it was really prevalence and so when it becomes so normalized, it's kind of hard to even think about what what do we even talk about how do we connect how do we how do we make each other feel seen when we're not talking about our bodies or we're not getting commentary around health or or whatnot. And so I really feel like there is that struggle with shifting dialogue so many times because it's just so deeply rooted and has been passed down for generations. And it's so normalized. But to your point, in your own experience, it is really problematic and often kind of goes under the surface in terms of how it really impacts the person who's on the receiving end of the comments. Right, right. Tell me more about your experience with the sexualization that you were experiencing, and how you internalize that I know you mentioned the worthiness piece kind of coming up around well, I'm not dating somebody, so does that make me a bad person or something wrong with me? How did the experience of your body, sex, all of these things and just the morality around it impact your, your self worth your self image?
Maya:
Right. Um, I think one of the things that really, for me was kind of like, a nerving, or just kind of threw me off balance as a kid was, you know, sexuality and sex were not really discussed in a way that was just kind of woven into conversation. And I know, we're gonna get into this later about, you know, the shame around sexuality, especially in religious circles. But, you know, my mom, worked for a church for a good part of my childhood. She was not like, necessarily on the clergy, but she worked with a lot of the clergy members. And I grew up in church, like, I have vivid memories of sitting in the choir stand with my mother drawing pictures, you know, playing mash with my best friend, while we're supposed to be listening to the sermon, like, I have vivid memories of those things. And I grew up in church, but sexuality and sex and just the topic of like body autonomy, even just in the context of like, God, creating our bodies, and our bodies being good, like that was never really spoken about. And even when it came to the topic of sex, it was just like, don't have sex. And that was pretty much it. And even the culture around you know, as a little girl, watching some of the older girls just hearing, you know, like, the Pew gossip, the church gossip of, you know, saying that girls were fast. And if you're not Southern, or you're not in church culture, that basically just means like, a girl is, quote, unquote, slutty or whatever the case may be, even if she's not engaged in any sexual activity, it's just the appearance of her. So I remember hearing those things, and all of those compiled things like, Alright, I'm supposed to have this. I'm not supposed to have sex. And I don't want to be talked about by the mothers in the church for how I dress. And my mom is working for the church, I want to make sure that I am being you know, out right as Sandra's daughter right, but have all those things as a little girl and wanting to meet that mark of quote, unquote, purity. And then I'm a teenager, and I start being told, like, Oh, I have such a big chest, you got big hips. Oh, you're so curvy, so pretty. And then, you know, this dialogue around like sex and like, Oh, I bet the boys are chasing after you, I bet you you have a boyfriend, and those conflicting ideals of like, okay, I'm supposed to be holding on to this idea of chastity and purity. But you're telling me that my body is designed for something else. And I don't know, as a kid how to reconcile those ideas, because I was never taught like what a healthy sexual relationship looked like, I was just forbidden from all talk of it all together. And I don't really know how to relate to my body in that way, because I've been told, like if I even engage in sexual activity in that way, like it's shameful, it's sinful. So I really tried to reconcile those ideas together, but it was very hard. And it wasn't really till I got in college and really, like started reading and being around just other women who are in that same season in this kind of like, discipling each other mentoring each other, and being open and vulnerable with one another that were kind of like, alright, we're both coming from the same space, and trying to figure out how do we reconcile our ideas of like, faith in God, but also, like, recognize that, like, our bodies are beautiful, and we don't have anything to be ashamed of. So it definitely was a struggle. Growing up because I couldn't read, I had a really hard time, like, reconciling the ideas of like, Alright, I'm supposed to be pure, but I also have this body that you're complimenting me about, but you're suggesting is built for impurity. Does that make sense?
Katelyn:
It makes complete sense. I actually really relate to this in my own experience as well, too. I grew up in a church also and very much in the era of purity culture, and have a lot of sexual shame as well. So I was actually saying this to someone recently, in my personal body image journey right now, that is, that's definitely a piece that I am actively working on right now. Because it's so deeply rooted. And because there's so much dissonance around it, like you're acknowledging, I mean, I really hear you loud and clear and can relate to that. Because it is really confusing, especially when, when you're growing up and your brain is being formed, to have these conflicting messages about two really primal biological parts of yourself, your sexual organs, and just your physical body. And, you know, that is what the world is actually seeing, like the internal, the external, and then the emotional and mental components of all of us. It's just a hodgepodge for a lot of different mixed messages. So, yeah, I get it. How did you reconcile it? What were some of the things that really stand out to you now, when you reflect back on the reconciliation process?
Maya:
Yeah, that's a good question. I think for now, and I think it's an ongoing process as well, um, something like, like, we were talking about language earlier, that's generationally passed along. I even catch myself, you know, or even catch other people, especially now with my daughter. I even catch language around her and she's, she's a toddler. And my daughter is very outgoing, like, she will wave at anyone in the supermarket, whatever. And I've even caught language of like, oh, she's flirting. I'm thinking to myself, like she's a year old. And in essence, right, it seems harmless, right? But I think we have to sometimes, like investigate like the language sometimes when it comes to like, the way that we talk about relationships, when I'm talking about love, even when we talk about our bodies and sexuality with our children, so I'm kind of going off a little bit enough, come back, even just now with the language that we use in our household with my daughter. And something that I'm very, like adamant about is naming her sexual organs accurately. I don't think I heard the word vagina in my house until I was maybe in high school.
Katelyn:
Oh, I don't think I ever heard it.
Maya:
I don't think I heard it for a while. I mean, I heard like private area, but I don't think I learned the parts of the vagina probably until I was in college. That's crazy because I've had one my whole life. I didn't know the parts until I was 18 years old. Um, so even just now like, you know, we're getting our child ready, like, Oh, alright, like mommy's about to change your diaper. That means I'm going to touch your vagina, or like we're having a bath. It's like, Alright, it's time to wash our private area. And in the moment, it seems like, oh, this seems weird. But because generationally, we haven't said those words. And those words in context for us had been put in a shameful category.
Katelyn:
I was just thinking that yeah, like, yeah, even even hearing that word still, like transparently
Maya:
Like your stomach dropped a little bit?
Katelyn:
Yes Like I still have that sense of like, is that what we say? You know, and yes, it shows you how deeply programmed this is. In our society at large. Yeah, as women.
Maya:
Yeah. People I've even had, you know, my parents are in and I'm not trying to rag on my parents or anything like my mom. She is like, amazing. And she's even reframing now that she has her granddaughter now. So I'll tell her son, she's like, okay, see where you're going? It's different, but I'm gonna go with it. Yeah,
Katelyn:
That's the thing, too. None of this is to blame, or shame or point fingers. At, you know, parents, almost the best. Always they're just doing the best they can. Absolutely. It's so beautiful when we can really have conversations and educate one another as we are evolving and growing and shifting our family lineage. So that's amazing that your mom's receptive and kind of on your team with how you want to raise your child.
Maya:
Yeah. And it's very like, it's a blessing for sure. And I thank God for that because I know that not everybody's situation is like that. But I'm thankful for just the openness and open handedness that they have towards just how me and my husband are choosing to raise her. So, you know, just using those anatomical terms like even, you know, with like, just random things like, Oh, do you need to pee and say like, do you need to TT, like just random things like that? No, those are bodily functions, and they're normal, and they're nothing to be ashamed of, because all of them, all of us do it. And, you know, until you get to a point where you can do things, these things for yourself. And you can say, you know, what, no, I don't want you to touch that part of me or No, I can clean that by myself, then, you know, we're instilling that like, okay, it's not a shameful word, I have one, not a big deal. And I have control over who touches it and who doesn't, and what I want to do with it. So I think that's something that just a small gesture, if there's any parents listening, or just future parents, just using correct anatomical terms for our children's bodies
Katelyn:
I think that's so powerful Maya, and I am also a really big believer in the power of words and vocabulary. And I talk about this a lot with clients, and just my community as well, too, but just our language for our relationship with food and how we label food and how we label you know, just how we are talking about our bodies. You know, in general, just how we're describing things. And so it is, it's so powerful, how it can shift our perception and our emotional experience with something just by using a correct term versus one that is carrying more of that emotional weight or kind of, you know, diminishing what it actually is in some way.
Maya:
Right? Yeah, that's so good. And I wanted to go back to your question earlier, about, like, kind of what shifted for me, as far as like, you know, my relationship around sexual shame and body shame, especially in relation to my faith. And I would say what really changed for me was really investigating the things that I believed and the things that I held to be like my faith beliefs, and I think it kind of goes back to what I was saying before about children. And I think I could have this on my bio, but I was a public educator for five years. So I taught 10 and 11 year olds. And I always would say that, like, we don't allow the autonomy and the independence and the what's the word I'm looking for, we don't credit children for how much they can learn. I really think we diminished children's potential as far as like their means to investigate something. Because we think, Oh, they're just kids. And I do believe there is space for us to allow children to be children, and not have to, you know, present them with these adult dilemmas. But I think if children have questions, we should provide the space for them, to discuss them, for them to investigate them. And for us to walk with them. And I think one thing that, especially if you're raising your child to, you know, be in a home of faith. I don't believe in just saying, well, that's the way it is. I think, you know, the God that I serve is a God of detail. He's a God of love. And he's okay with us questioning him, there's not going to be questions to everything, answers to everything, but I believe he's okay with us. Asking questions, and investigating, you know, why? And I think one of the things that for me change, when it came to sex, was shifting the idea that sex was shameful, which was what I was presented with all my life in an attempt to not get me to have sex. So framing it as sex is something that has been created by the Divine by God. And he's just given parameters so that it can be done in a healthy way. So meaning, like, when we talk about sex, meaning it's between two people who are in a commitment in a covenant, not between two people who are under duress or someone who's being forced, or someone who's not coherent, or just people who are in a commitment, who have discussed, who have boundaries, and are there to create love within one another. So I think one of the big things for me was just reframing that idea that sex was created by God. That was like the biggest shift for me, because in my eyes, I was like, God hates sex. But then when I realized, no, God created sex, I was like, oh, so that means that God created like my vagina, and my vagina is not something that I should be ashamed of. Have, or God created my big hips and my big chest. And they're a product of His creation, I don't have to feel ashamed of it. So that was really a big reframe for me. And I wish that was something that I got as a little girl. And one thing that I'm trying to like teach my child now, it's not like, God created all of who you are. And it's a good thing, and he loves you how you are. And I love you how you are mad at whether you have gained a little weight, whether you're losing weight, whether you're figuring out what foods you like, and don't like. So that's something that I wish I would have got as a little girl, instead of the shame surrounding sex, I wish I would have learned that it was created as a good thing. But God has boundaries and parameters surrounding it, so that it can remain a good thing. Does that make sense?
Katelyn:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that is, it's so important, just the how, how you're talking about consent. And yeah, that is like the the number one foundational boundary to lead with in any type of sexual experience in order to really have a, you know, a positive sexual experience, and one that can be enjoyable to.
Maya:
And I wil say say that like without body autonomy, and like body knowledge, it's very hard to give consent. So like, if you don't know your body, it's very hard to navigate, you know, what you'd like to consent to. And I remember one of the studies that I was reading when I was pregnant, when I was deciding about the language about, you know, choosing to say the word vagina to my daughter, one of the things that I read was that, you know, sexual predators are much less likely to prey on children who can correctly name their body parts. And that's because, you know, in their sick mind, they don't want children to be able to readily identify what has happened to them. But if they know that a child can say like, that is, you know, my vagina, that is my private area, or that's my penis, they're less likely to try to prey on that child. And that statistic alone was like, Yep, we're yet we're doing that, because I want her not even just in that dire situation. But when she does choose to have a relationship, I want her to be able to make the choice of like, No, I don't want you to test me there. Yes, I do want you to touch me there. Or I don't feel safe in this situation, or I do feel safe in this situation. And I want her to be able to have that confidence in her body to be able to make those decisions. Even if she's under duress, or in a situation that's uncomfortable.
Katelyn:
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's so important. And I'm really glad that you're, you're bringing that up again, just back to the accurate language, vocabulary descriptors of all of these parts of our bodies that are so important to bring into sexual experiences and just to life. One thing that I want to ask you about and just get your opinion about that was such a big part of my sexual shame journey is just self pleasure and the shame around any type of masturbation or just your own personal sexual preferences or whatnot. And the shame that I experienced around that and not really knowing what to ask for when I was in situations because it felt shameful to even ask for it. And kind of breaking that down. And just to your point around, accurately labeling parts of the body, the dismantling of shame around just getting to know your body on a very personal level as well, too.
Maya:
Yeah, um, this is something that I am still investigating, and I'm not gonna claim to be an expert on it. I know there are a lot of people who are doing a lot of work on it, but from my experience, and really what I've learned on my faith journey, specifically around pleasure, I think it goes back to what I said before that also like, I have a deep rooted belief that like, in the same way that God has created like sex he's created like sexual pleasure. So like all the anatomical like parts of us as women and men that the intricacies and the way that our sexual organs work and the ways that we reach climax and orgasm been things of those nature, like those things were created by God and he's like called those things Good. And I even think about like, the verse in Genesis, one of the first commandments that God gives Adam and Eve is Be fruitful and multiply, which basically means have sex. And I think that's interesting that one of the first commands is to come together and to enjoy one another. But the fact that that's not really talked about is kind of crazy to me. And the way that we've built sex to be this shameful thing that is not good. And the way we frame it in a way where it's forbidden, it doesn't align, in my opinion with the way that sex is discussed in the Scripture. So I know that probably not your entire audience is Christian, but I'm just speaking from my experience, but what I would say is one of the big things again, it's like, whatever you identify as your faith to be, I really encourage you to investigate the faith for yourself. Even just investigating some of the things that you were, you know, told as a child taught as a child to really investigate liturgies to investigate the Scripture, whatever you hold to be like literature that's associated to your faith and beliefs to really investigate that. And to investigate that with people who are in your same space of life who like identify the places where you're vulnerable, the places where you have questions, because those are going to be the people who are going to be willing to walk with you through that. Because it's a process. Like I said, I'm still, you know, walking through that. But one of the things that I will say that has really helped reframe my relationship around sexual shame has been my husband, probably listen to this, and he's gonna blush. But I will say just having a partner that I can really trust, to discuss just how I'm feeling, whether it's in the moment, whether it's before sex, or after sex, just saying, you know, how my body feels has been a game changer. Because I think a lot of us, especially women, who maybe have grown up in the sexual shame aspect, they really don't know how to communicate sexual needs to their partner. Because, okay, sex is a is a thing that we do, or, you know, we waited to have sex till marriage, now we're having sex, but it's maybe not great sex, but we're just going to go along with it, because we're a married couple. And that's what we're gonna do, instead of really investigating like, okay, like, what makes your body feel good. Or, when you do this, this makes me feel good. And recognizing that, like, our pleasure is something that was created by God. And it's a good thing. And we don't have to have shame in this room with one another because we're under a commitment and a covenant and we trust each other. And what we do in this room, by all means, and Scripture is blessed. So I think that's one thing that I really encourage a lot of my friends who are women, or even just like, well, I usually have this conversation with women, I'm not, you know, talking about sexual pleasure with men, let's be honest, but my girlfriends who are married, I'm just like, you need to communicate, you need to, you know, express your autonomy in the bedroom with you know, your partner and say, Alright, this is not working for me and not be afraid of like the casualties and the niceties because like, you guys are supposed to be in this trust, a committed relationship. And for there to be trust, there has to be openness, there has to be vulnerability. So I would say just to kind of like summarize, it's just investigating my beliefs, reading, stepping into that space of, you know, kind of investigating faith with people that are in the same space as me came from kind of the same history as I am because they understand where I'm at. And also just having a partner who is willing to step into those places with you, and that you can truly trust with exploring pleasure in a way that you don't feel forced or coerced. Or that you feel like you can't be honest with them.
Katelyn:
Yeah. How did you get to that place with your now husband? Were you at a place where you were doing a lot of that work before you guys met each other? Or were you initially doing that personal development for yourself? What was that journey like?
Maya:
Well, I will say that we had a lot of conversations before we got engaged or even married about sex. One just because we were super attracted to each other. I just, I still think he's really hot but I remember, one of the first things that we had talked about is that both me and my husband had a very healthy relationship with pornography before we met each other, and that was like the first person that I ever told about my porn habit was my now husband. And the reason that I developed the porn habit was because I was curious about sex, but I was shamed into not talking about sex because of the religious circles that my family belonged to. But it became a point where, you know, it was not a healthy relationship with pornography. And I remember the first time I told him about that, I was like, Oh my gosh, he's gonna break up with me, he's gonna think I'm a weirdo. And he was just super open and super just empathetic and completely understood where I was coming from, and the freedom to be able to say, like, Okay, this is something that I'm ashamed of, and not being met with, like dissonance, or like disgust or rebuttal or even rebuke from like, a religious standpoint, but just like, Okay, tell me more about that. And like, why don't you want to have that habit anymore? Or like, what is it that makes you like, want to detach from this? And like, what do you want, like your sexuality to look like in a healthy way? And him constantly coming back and being like, okay, like, how was that like, tell me like, What can I do to make you feel better, and being in just that posture of like, I want to serve you in this in this area of our life, because this is a relationship where like, I want to make you feel good, and I want to make my husband feel good. That's something that I think we both came to the relationship with. But I think like those initial moments of like, being able to be vulnerable, built us up to the to where we are now we're five years, about to be six years next year. And we've known each other for almost a decade. So it's taken some time. And even in my postpartum body, I did have a little bit of shame after having our daughter of just how my body works, how I felt in my body. So many things happen after you have a child. So even just relearning that intimacy, this past year after healing was another thing in itself. But I would say like the honesty, being brutally honest there there, you can gain nothing by telling a lie to your to your partner, it may give you some temporary satisfaction or may temporarily defuse a situation. But in the long run, you're going to have to be sitting with the lie. Especially when it comes to pleasure. Because if you tell your partner, man, that was great, they're gonna always do that. And you're gonna be mad every weekend, you're like, Dang, this was not that great. So I really do believe that honesty is like super important, even in our non sexual relationships, friendships, with our doctors, with our health professionals with family about our boundaries, is super important. It's uncomfortable, and it may sting. But in the long run, it's going to help keep the peace that's in you in your household.
Katelyn:
I love that you said that. And I think it's so valuable for any kind of relationship, but especially one involving sex, just that level of vulnerability, transparency, honesty, specific to sex, but really about so, so many things. And one of the things that we talk about a lot in this community, in terms of sexual relationships is how we're talking about our bodies, how we're feeling about our bodies, really dismantling that shame through vulnerability when you're in a safe space. And one thing that I think is important too, for conversations like this is making sure that you're having the conversation at a time where you're setting yourself up for success. Really setting that expectation for yourself in a way that is not going to create an environment that is making you feel uncomfortable. So for example, and I want your opinion on this too Maya, but sometimes I think we want to just rush to say it and not asking the other person, if they're open to having a vulnerable conversation first can can be really problematic sometimes because if the other person is in their head about something and just not in a place to have a conversation like that, and they're not really at a place where they're ready to hear you and sit with you in a hard conversation. It can get really tangled and messy and just a lot of expectations cannot be met. And so if it's possible, it's not going to happen like this every time but to just lead with, Hey, I have something I want to share with you. Can we? Can we talk about a couple of things that are on my mind? Are you in a place where you can have a conversation like this? Get the buy in first? And then yeah, move forward and really opening up and sharing vulnerably?
Maya:
Yeah, I mean, you hit it on the nail, Katelyn. I mean, I know I keep talking about my baby. But I think it's a perfect example. And I'll return to what we're talking about in terms of pleasure. But one of the things that I'm learning because my daughter has started to have tantrums in her beautiful toddler stage, and one of the things that I'm learning with her is I cannot reason with her during a tantrum, I have to wait until she is calm and ready to talk to me to look at me in the eye. But when she is in for foil mode, I just have to say, You know what mommy's here, when you're, you know, ready to calm down, I see that you're upset, we can talk about it when you're ready to come down, but I'm not gonna let you hurt yourself or hurt something else. So we'll wait till you calm down. And it's so crazy, because she's so young. But she's still you know, when I say Do you understand what mommy's saying she'll nod? Like, do you want to hug, she'll hug and we'll move on. And I think it's the same way, with sexuality. And with our relationships with our partners, I think like you said, like, you have to be open to the conversation. And you have to get that buy in. And I know that like, sometimes our lives are so busy, that we don't really make space for those conversations to happen. So one of the things that I would encourage you to do, especially if you have kids, or maybe you're just busy, professionally, and you really don't have like the intentional time always to sit down with your partner. One of the things that we started doing after our five year anniversary, we realized, like, we were kind of disconnecting a little bit, is just setting like a regular rhythm of like getting away. And that doesn't mean like taking a trip, but like we have started to say like, alright, you know, once a month mean, you were going on a date, it's just gonna be us two. We're gonna cancel any other obligations. And we're going to go out to eat, or we're going to go do something together. And during that date, let's take a few minutes to just check in and say like, Alright, how are we doing? Like, relationally? How are we doing sexually? How are we doing financially? How are we doing spiritually, and just having that regular rhythm? And for me, I know like, okay, Saturday is our date night, you know, what's something that I've been thinking about that I want to tell my husband, but I have been putting it off. Now in my mind, I'm like, Alright, Saturday, I really want to be intentional, you know about this conversation. And we do the same thing with family where it's all three of us. So we all do something, just us, we're not with another family. We're not with another couple. We're not with grands, we're just us three, and we're hanging out and connecting, because our society is built in a way that it just kind of pulls us from each other constantly, in a way that our relationships become so strained, because we really don't have the intentional space to spend with each other. So a way to kind of combat that is scheduling. And I know sometimes that feels a little, like placid and like planned. But it's so beneficial in the long run. Especially when you feel like me, I just have something on my chest, but I can't get it off. Or like I don't feel like I have the time to really sit down and talk about it. Because we're so busy. I think that rhythm of like intentionally pulling away is super important.
Katelyn:
What's your opinion on scheduling sex? I feel like everyone has a different.
Maya:
You know what, I'm not against it. Because honestly, I get it because with a kid and everything and full time jobs, it can be like a week, and I'm like, dang, we really haven't had sex. Because we're just going, going, going, going going. But it's so important for us to reconnect. Like it's very, very important for us to reconnect. I mean that I know that everyone's not a Christian listener, but the Bible even talks about coming together regularly with your spouse. And why that's a good thing because you want to stay connected so that you're not pulled away by temptations or things that could go against your relationship. So I think there's nothing wrong with it. And I think you can actually like spice it up. You know, like if you schedule it, like you know, the day of getting a little spicy in the text, send something with some invisible ink, you know, just do something fun.
Katelyn:
I love that. What are your other tips for getting in the mood, that you're open to sharing, like if somebody right or if you ever find yourself in like a sexual rut where you're just kind of craving it.
Maya:
Yeah, I would say like, Okay, if you know, and this is something that my husband really did, and still does, postpartum, my body just did not feel sexy because I was breastfeeding. I was healing from my C section. So I had this like weird scar across my abdomen. And I just did not feel sexy. And one of the things that my husband did was really affirm that he was attracted to me. Because in my postpartum body, I was like, Man, I'm not at the weight that I was, I don't have like the movement that I could, because I'm still healing. And in my head, I'm just like, Man, I am not sexy. Like, that was kind of what I was repeating to myself. But my husband like affirming to me, that man, I love the way you look, baby looks so sexy. I just love the way you look, you look so good, man, you're just saying that even in the first moments when I was like, You're just saying that. Over time, like him just sharing that affirmation over me, made me want to be affectionate. Because in that moment, like, I was like, Man, I don't want to be affectionate, because I'm conscious about the way my body looks and feels right now because it's in mom mode, not in you know, hot wife mode. So just that, that affirmation, especially if your partner is kind of struggling with their body right now, I would really affirm it. And even if it may be falls on like, quote, unquote, deaf ears, continue to do it. And do it in a genuine way, not even just doing it because you want to have sex, but doing it because you genuinely enjoy your partner's body. Um, and then I will say, Excuse me, I will say another thing, just to kind of spice things up, other than the scheduling and just the spicy invisible texts. I really do. Again, just like proximity, intimacy is very important. And what I mean by that is like, just spending time with the person, again, when our, our society is very, like, unintentional, with just being still and being, you know, with someone, it's just like, we have our hands in so many buckets and baskets at one time for you to really draw away. And really just spend time with the person not distracted by phone or a show, but just really like laying next to each other and just talking, just looking at each other in the eye. Like if you think about it, like we really don't look at people in the eye, often a lot, especially after this pandemic. I'm just really just that proximity, intimacy is so important. And to pull away from the distractions, I think that's one of the biggest things that sounds like something minute, but I guarantee you, if you just like, take like five minutes with your partner, no phone, no Netflix, no nothing. Just look at each other and just talk. It just is something transformative, because you're you're connecting that intimacy is like rekindling. So I really just really think it's important to have a regular rhythm of pulling away and being intentional with your partner, even if it's your romantic partner, whether it's your kids, whether it's family, whatever it is, is, it's such a good rhythm to have.
Katelyn:
Those are great tips. Thank you so much for sharing that. And, you know, it's so interesting, I'm picking up on so many different themes from everything that you're sharing Maya and the things that are really standing out to me and your personal story is really just your own personal sovereignty and what is what is valuable for you individually and seeking that out intentionally. And then the power of community as well too. Because just like you, just like you and I mentioned, this is a really diverse community. In this podcast community there are many different walks of faith and sexual orientations and just relationships and all these things. And so really deciding what you want and then seeking out communities that feel safe for you to explore and go deeper and receive validation, self validation, community validation in the context of just elevating what you want and your desire and then really linking that up with your personal desire sexually, your partner's desire sexually the vulnerability there, the the trust, the commitment, the rhythm of building that with somebody. There's just so many pieces. Does that feel accurate for you?
Maya:
Yeah, definitely. And even just recognizing for me, like, even in just in my personal journey, like with just sexuality and faith, like recognizing that, you know, we have to really investigate the things that we believe because the things that we believe in form everything about us. And really like understanding like, Why do I believe this, and understanding that we're not going to come to those answers overnight. Because like we've mentioned before, a lot of the beliefs that we've had have been passed on for generations and generations and generations, and going against the grain and really investigating is going to feel hard and going to feel weird. And it could be exhausting sometimes. But when you really understand the joy that it brings the peace that it brings to be able to understand truly what your faith is. And to understand truly how God has created you in a way that's beautiful in a way that's intentional in the way that you can really mirror his intentionality in your own life, by the way that you treat others, by the way, that you approach relationships. It is really like, it's really, it feels fulfilling. And to be able to pass that on to your children so that they don't have to do the hard work that you did, to get where you're at is very gratifying. So I would say for sure, just being in those spaces where I could open up where I could be real where I could express and knowing that my expressions wouldn't be met with rebuke but would be met with encouragement would be met with, okay, let's walk through this together, would be met with like, Alright, you're safe with me, even in moments where, alright, my You're a little off right here, let's let's talk about this. And let's investigate it more. I always felt safe in those spaces. So I'm definitely thankful for that. And this is definitely a journey for me, as I said, I'm still on that postpartum journey. And even as thinking about having future children, I know that there will be rhythms in times where I have to return back to kind of my pillars of belief and faith. So it definitely is a journey. But I'm glad that I'm able to kind of have my eyes open to kind of see. And I'm thankful for the communities that keep me on track. And I'm thankful for the inspiration that my daughter's given me to keep on this journey. So I can pass that wisdom on to her.
Katelyn:
That's amazing. I'm so I'm so happy that you have had this experience, and just all the wisdom that you're putting out into the world. I'm going to kick myself if I don't ask one more final question that's been on my mind, like this conversation. But you I mean, it's obvious that you were pretty steeped in diet culture, when you were growing up with the messages that you received. And just you mentioned in high school really being in that diet cycle, the binging the restricting all of the things and then kind of simultaneously getting to college and having this awakening with yourself sexually and the shame of, you know, dismantling that shame, and simultaneously letting go of some of those diet, culture beliefs, and kind of radically redefining your relationship with your body and all of these areas. So how did the dismantling diet culture and getting out of that cycle play a part in your experience of just becoming more comfortable in in your body overall, sexually, and by society standards with just body image in general?
Maya: Sorry, my daughter sound machine just came on, let me turn it off. So we don't have that weird background noise. Um, so for me, one of the things that I kind of recognized was a trend. When we talk about, like, shame and things of that nature, I would say like, one of the things that I recognize was that the shame that I was associating with like sex was the same shame that I was associating with food. Does that make sense? How, like, yeah, yeah. So like, for example, like, I was shameful about my body in the ways of like, Man, I have a lot of curves or, you know, I feel like I maybe needed to hide my curves or I felt like, I couldn't express that, you know, I wanted to have sex or you know, early in my relationship with my husband like expressing you know, like, this is the way that I you know, want to have sex and this is what I want my sexual relationship to look like being shameful that In the same way, being shameful about my eating habits, or the way that my body looked, instead of just expressing, like, you know, oh man, like I, I'm uncomfortable with the way my body looks right now, can someone help me, like cultivate a better relationship with working out with exercise with food. Instead, it was like, I just got to figure out how to get skinny so that nobody talks about me when I go home. So that shame of like, not willing to be vulnerable about the thing that I was struggling with, ie like my sexuality, and how my body related to sexual pleasure, but also how food and exercise related to like my body image and how I felt about my body and just my overall health. I think I was ashamed to come and say that I wanted guidance and wisdom on that. Because I was shamed into just like, either you're skinny, when you come home, or either you're fat, we're not asking you about your eating habits. We're not asking about, you know, your exercise, all we're seeing is how you look, we're not really concerned. Other than that. So I think those two things kind of tied into one another, that shame culture that really just was adopted by my family, but just society in whole. It shamed me to the point of not being able to ask for help. But when I got to college, again, I'll never forget, I lived next door to these two twin sisters, Brooke and Brittany Harvey listening. They were really great friends. And we just had the common interest of like, alright, we want to be healthy. So we worked out together, we went on walks together, we tried new restaurants together. And they were also writers. So we used to write poems and go to open mics together. And our lives just kind of intertwined in a way that was natural, because we were both in spaces where we're like, we want to be healthy. But we weren't, you know, criticizing each other for size. We weren't critiquing each other, we were encouraging each other. And we were just like spurring each other on. And it was just a healthy relationship around fitness that I and lifestyle and health that I hadn't had before it was either like, Oh, we got a rush to lose weight, because we're about to go home, or we're about to have this big event, or man, we're sad, there's a lot going on in the household. So we're just gonna binge eat, you know. So that was like one of the first like healthy relationships around like food and an exercise that I had, and it felt natural, it didn't feel forced. And I think that's what kind of transformed me.
Katelyn:
Amazing. Again, that's, again, the community thing. Yeah, I was just going to say that it's like one of these themes that keeps popping up in this conversation, your personal intention, and then seeking out the community to help you thrive and reinforce and validate and help you grow. And it's just, it's really powerful. And that is so often the case, when we're healing our relationship with food in our body, and all of these things, a lot of things that I'm kind of hearing your story that I can certainly identify with and speak to often in this community is kind of this perfectionistic undertone of, well, I'll just figure it out on my own. That way, nobody else thinks that I'm struggling or I don't have to, like ask for help and make people worry, and we can avoid that emotional discomfort. Or we think that we can by way of doing so it's just it's so beautiful. When all of us are like screaming for help, all of us are screaming for help. And so well, what's so amazing is what, you know, your powerful example of vulnerability. And when we bring that into the equation, shame just really can't exist anymore. And vulnerability and perfectionism. It's like two opposing forces. And so it can feel so, so deeply uncomfortable when you first get started with it. But I'm in, look at what it can do if you really step into it and create spaces where you feel safe and practicing and exploring and building that skill. So it's amazing. Your stories are so powerful, Maya and Jackie. Yeah, I'm so appreciative of you sharing today and just the vulnerability that you brought to this conversation, especially in some of these topics that I know so many in so many spaces it they're hard to talk about. So thank you so much.
Maya:
Thank you for having me. This is awesome. I love talking about this stuff.
Katelyn:
So well, you've got a lot to find you and you have you publish books and you have a podcast and all these things which we'll link to in our show notes. But where can everybody check you out?
Maya:
Yeah, so I am a former educator, but I'm also a writer and a podcaster. I write poetry. So if you want to keep up with me, you can visit my website is mayacymone.com, Ma, ya c y m o n e. And I have both of my poetry collections there and a bunch of my poetry prints there for sale if you'd like to support me that way. And I also have a podcast called tea•ology which is published weekly. And it's basically just conversations at the intersection of faith and culture. So I talk about just a lot of cultural issues, but also how they intersect with faith and belief. And just like in a community where we can openly talk about things that maybe you didn't talk about in church, but are really important to the things that inform our faith and belief. So you can follow me there. The podcast also has an Instagram so it's T e a ology, so yeah, I think I think that's everything. And then you can follow me on Instagram. It's a hot mess over there. So you can follow me on there.
Katelyn:
Awesome. Well, you're incredible. Thank you so much for your truth today. Your time. Yeah. So appreciate it. Thank you.
Maya:
Absolutely. Thank you.