Episode 81: The Truth About Eating Disorder Recovery With Chelsea McCurdy
Episode 81: The Truth About Eating Disorder Recovery With Chelsea McCurdy
In this episode we sit down with....Chelsea McCurdy.
Chelsea's goal is to create a collaborative, empowering, and inclusive online environment that lights a fire for self-love and body acceptance in women. She is 35, married to her husband Hayden (he is a trans man) and they both identify as queer. They live with 4 guinea pigs, one black lab, and one perfect cat.
In this conversation we talk about:
Chelsea’s personal body image story- diet pills in middle school leading to and up and down relationship with her body
Her experience with weight loss surgery
The truth about nonlinear recovery
Practical tools for showing up for yourself
Chelsea’s experiences of setting boundaries- with relationships, social media, etc.
Connect with our guest...
TikTok: @whatwouldellewoodsdo
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TRANSCRIPTION Episode 81: The Truth About Eating Disorder Recovery With Chelsea McCurdy
Katelyn:
Hi, Chelsea McCurdy.
Chelsea:
Hi, how are you?
Katelyn:
I am so great. I’m so excited to sit down with you to get to know you and hear about your body image story, and also just hear about your life in general. And really just spend some time with you today. Thanks for being here.
Chelsea:
I'm really excited about it. I'm a little nervous, but I'm excited.
Katelyn:
It's okay. It's totally normal to be nervous and this is a really safe space. So you're in great hands with this community. Let's just dive in. You ready?
Chelsea:
I'm ready.
Katelyn:
Good. Okay. So the first question that we ask everyone is your first body awareness moment. So that moment where you realized I'm in a body, and this means something in the world that I'm living in- what did that look like for you, and also, how did that moment shape your relationship with your body and or food moving forward? Just share your story.
Chelsea (body image story):
Well, it kind of feels like maybe mine happened a little bit later than most people. I was always very cerebral. As a child, I was very into how things worked, and why things were the way they were, not so much myself. And so I remember once I started getting curves, like I think I was maybe 12. And I started getting boobs and hips. And I remember my dad pulling me aside and saying that he needed to talk to me about my body, because he was worried that I was going to end up the way he ended up. And he used the word Husky, because he wore Husky jeans when he was like, in junior high, and people made fun of him for being fat. And he told me that he didn't want that to happen to me. And that I really needed to start watching what I ate, and being aware of my body that was getting different shapes. And he said it to me in such a nice, kind way- he never tried to hurt me, but it shaped my entire future. And because he bought me- I don't know if they're still called this anymore- but they were these diet pills at Walmart. And he bought me a bottle of them. And I don't remember the names anymore. It started with an M, I think. And I started taking them. It was like Metabolite or something. And I started taking them over the counter. And I remember that night, my sister and I- this is gonna tell you exactly how old I am- we pulled out the Delia's catalog with all of the cute 90s clothes.
Katelyn:
Yeah, yes.
Chelsea:
I lived for Delia's.
Katelyn:
Oh, girl, me too.
Chelsea:
Well, we sat and circled every tank top and bikini that I would one day look hot in because I was going to be so “skinny” because of these pills. And looking back, I have pictures and videos of myself at that age, and I looked completely normal. And I just think my dad panicked because I was about to hit puberty. And he didn't want me to have that hard life. But what that ended up doing to me was saying, Hey, your body is an issue, and I'm finding a problem with it, so other people will at some point. And I didn't want my dad not to like me- I wanted him to be proud of me. So I started going to the gym with him. And I wasn't even old enough for a gym membership. He had to sign a special paper to take me there. And it just kept snowballing from there. Of course, if you're going to restrict calories and take diet pills at age 12 you're going to end up not happy about anything about your life and your food and your body. And it got to the point that I was sneaking food, which just snowballed into a really big eating disorder. And to be honest, I remember coming home after school and eating before my parents got home because we were there for like an hour and a half before they got home from work, and eating like three sandwiches as fast as I could because I was so worried that they were going to see me eating. And then from there, it became like this workout obsession. And there was this diet center in my hometown growing up- it was called Lifestyles, I'll never forget. We showed up and my dad paid for everything. He bought me all these supplements that they were peddling to us. And I had to fill out everything I put in my body. I had to be there Monday, Wednesday and Friday to weigh-in every week. I couldn't even drive yet so he had to drive me and then once I could drive when I turned 16, I kept driving myself. They had robes to change into so you didn't have to wear clothes on the scale. They had a bell that you could ring every time you lost weight. They measured me every three months. And I remember they had all these things in their office like, this is a representation of five pounds, and it was like a bag of rice or whatever. And so that really fueled the whole perfectionism inside me to be perfect to have this perfect body, this acceptable, perfect body. And I just remember, I did lose quite a bit of weight when I went to that Lifestyles place because I wanted them to be proud of me, I wanted to do everything right. And I will never forget going to try on my prom dresses. And then when I went to pick my prom dress up a couple months later, it fell off my body. And I was like, Well, now what and they had to take it in four sizes for me. I'm not going to say I followed their program perfectly- I took it and ran until I was eating, you know, practically nothing for a year in high school. And so it started at age 12 and snowballed all the way up until age 16 or 17 in high school, and then it got really bad to where I was over exercising and undereating. And then my prom dress was kind of proof. But I was so proud of that proof. And everyone was congratulating me. My parents were so happy and they loved me and everything was great. And I'll never forget the night of prom, because we had to stay up all night. Because after prom lasted until 5am, when my body was used to a very strict schedule of waking up, eating the same thing every day, and going to bed by 8:30, so that I wouldn't be hungry. And somewhere around the 3am mark, it was so bad- I felt like I might pass out- it was like my body forced me to eat and I ate two plates of food. And then after that I just thought I had ruined everything. I ruined everything. And so I came home super upset from prom thinking I had just messed up everything I'd ever worked for. And so it was always very black and white thinking for me. And it got a little bit better once I went to college just because I got to get away from my parents. And then it got a little bit worse, because then I started swinging to the other side of the pendulum and eating more than I should have, and drinking quite a bit. And that was just a coping skill, I think, for me a coping mechanism, per se. And then I remember it got bad again in college, and I started running again. And it's just been an up and down roller coaster with my body and my sense of self ever since those diet pills were put in my hand at age 12. And now I'm 35. And I've lived alone out of my parents house since I was 18, you know, except for the summers in between semesters of college, but I didn't even understand that this was an eating disorder until I was in my late 20s. I was with my ex-girlfriend at the time we were decorating a Christmas tree. And I said something like, I really wish we could get McDonald's. She was like why can't we? And I was like, Oh, well, you know, I just don't really feel like having to deal with the mental guilt right now of McDonald's. I just can't do that. I really want to have a good night. Because it's like our Christmas party type night. And she just stopped me from decorating the tree and said, What are you talking about? I was like, What do you mean- everyone feels bad if they eat something that is bad. And she was like, that's an eating disorder. I just looked at her. Like, Are you nuts? No, it isn't. That's just normal. And then I got into therapy and I realized that she was totally right- the things I was doing were super unhealthy. And my mentality was by far the worst of all of it, of all the behaviors. My mentality is still something I struggle with, even if I don't physically engage in those bad behaviors.
Katelyn:
Yeah, Chelsea, I mean, there's so many beautiful parts of your story that you shared that are just coming to mind. And what's so interesting about your story is all of these really subtle, but also kind of obvious messages that you got growing up. Like the first thing that comes up from hearing your story is Lifestyles- just the name of that facility alone, creating this dissonance in your mind of Oh, this is just a lifestyle when in fact it's actually highly disordered and the belief system that's created at a really impressionable age as well, too.
Chelsea:
That's exactly right. I will never forget sitting in that office, I was there three times a week, you know. So I would be there- and I know I didn't get to clarify, now that I'm 35, and that was 15-20 years ago, I didn't even participate in those behaviors. I only did what they told me to do, because it wasn't in my own head yet. Those were the rules, if that makes sense, like, looking back now, after having an eating disorder for, I don't know, 20 years, I have so many different rules that I don't participate in now, because I know they're bad for me. But I did for such a long time. Like, I would never imagine weighing myself in full clothes without going to the bathroom first thing in the morning, before having even a drink of water. That was one of the main rules. I would weigh in, in my jeans and my shoes and they always asked me, Chelsea, don't you want to change into a robe? Don't you want to go to the bathroom? And I kept thinking, why? Why do you guys care so much? But those are the ideas that were put into my brain, and became my ideas that I took. And I'm still not rid of that one yet. And that's one that I struggle with in therapy to this day- trying to get rid of the scale/not care what the scale has to say. There were just a lot of messages. I think the hardest one, the deepest one that I still don't even like to admit to myself was that my parents wouldn't like me unless I fit this exact image of what they saw for their daughter. And I was so worried all the time that if I didn't do it, right, if I didn't have this body, then I wasn't going to be what they wanted or what they liked. And I mean, no offense to my parents, but like I could care less, I could give two shits now if they liked me, or if they care about my body. Like it's my body, and I'm taking it back and I'm done caring. But it formed such a wound in my brain and in my heart growing up- I really thought that if I didn't look perfect or act perfect, I was never going to be loved. And they never said that out loud, but that's what I gathered from the way that I was pushed and pulled at, you know, 12, 13, 14 all the way up to 18, honestly. And I will never forget- and maybe this was the wrong thing to do- but I went to my parents house, I don't know, maybe eight years ago, and looked through my dad's computer. And I looked through his search history, I was curious. And all of the search history, I'm not kidding, at least 80% of it was weight loss surgery, overweight daughter, what to do. You know, it was not like therapy, or how to support someone who's dealing with eating disorders that I gave them. But instead, how to fix my daughter who has, you know, gained quite a bit of weight after 12 years of eating disorders and her metabolism doesn't work anymore, what do I do? So I remember seeing that on his computer and being like, I'll do it. And he went with me to the weight loss surgery classes. We did all of it and they were trying to educate us and tell us, well, here's how you should eat. Here's the right thing to do. And I remember sitting in that class thinking, I know all of this already. I've known this since I was 12. I know all the rules and all the right things to say and do. But why am I not skinny? Because everyone else doesn't know any of this- they're so confused just sitting in this classroom. And I feel like I could teach this class, but yet, I'm not skinny. And then, after two more of those meetings, I went by myself, I came home, I didn't live at home, I lived with my ex-girlfriend. And I told her that I don't think I could do it. I just started crying. I was like, it's so backwards. I was in therapy for eating disorder recovery. At the same time as these weight loss surgery classes. And they just clashed with each other. And I felt this huge cognitive dissonance where I couldn't figure out which one was right. And I told her I was like, I don't think I can go through with it. And she was like, then don't- you don't have to do anything. So I cancelled it. And I remember going to my parents house, my dad was washing dishes. And I I tried to keep this really collected manner about me and tell him that I just couldn't do it. And I just knew he was going to be so disappointed. And I just started sobbing. And I said I just don't want you not to love me anymore. Like I want you to keep loving me even if I'm fat. And he hugged me and said, Of course I do, where did you get that idea? I was just like, it's from you and your behavior. But I didn't say that. I just let it go. And I didn't get weight loss surgery at that time. And fast forward, you know, eight years up the road. And I'm still in therapy, still struggling, still gaining weight. And my therapist told me that it was a terrible idea and that I really needed to focus on Intuitive Eating- I needed to focus on healing my relationship with food and healing my brain. And I got so angry that someone was trying to tell me what to do, even though that's her job. I quit going to therapy and booked a flight to Tijuana to get weight loss surgery there. My dad paid for the flight and a surgery, all of it, because he told me that he would do whatever he needed to do to fix me. And I finally said, Fine, do it. And that was three years ago. And I'm still not skinny. I'm still living in a larger body. But the difference is that now I'm starting to realize that that's okay. And I don't have to look a certain way to be loved. And it's still hard. I still struggle every single day, including today. It's just something I had to do. I'm still trying to work my brain around it.
Katelyn:
Why did you choose Tijuana Chelsea versus getting it in the United States?
Chelsea:
Two reasons. The main reason being that I went to get the evaluation done, because you have to see a mental health professional in order to get that done in the States, at least with my insurance. And I was told no- I was told that I shouldn't have it, because had a clinical eating disorder diagnoses and they were like, We don't really approve of this for people who are struggling, which to me seems silly, because I feel like most people who look for weight loss surgery probably do struggle with those things, or else they wouldn't look to that. And that's just my opinion. I think that the Venn diagram of those people and I, I'm one of them. And also, I changed careers and my new job didn't cover it anymore. So my cheapest and sneakiest option to get around all of the doctor's orders was to go to Mexico instead. And so I did, and it was not a great experience at all. I'll never forget even then they had a nurse come in to tell me about nutrition, a little five minute class after the surgery was over, you know, legally, I guess they had to do that. And the first word out of her mouth where I'm sure you're not used to eating healthy- I'm sure you're not used to cooking healthy meals, but here is a start for you and your new life. And I could just die thinking about that, because I was so angry at the time. I was so angry at her for saying that to me. Because I was like, You have no idea how great I am at healthy, disgusting meals that don't taste good. I've done every diet on this market. I’ve cooked everything on the internet. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm doing. But like, hy was I so defensive and proud of that, you know? It's such a lonely place to be when you're deep in an eating disorder, because it will pull you from everyone you love. It's like an addiction- you will lie, you will sneak around, you'll lie to yourself. And it's just, it's just awful. It's such a dark place.
Katelyn:
I'm curious how you got to this. I'm kind of going back in your story to when your girlfriend at the time acknowledged the possibility of you having the eating disorder when you were decorating the Christmas tree- it sounds like that was the first time anybody had brought that to your attention before. How did you move forward from that? Do you remember how you felt at the time?
Chelsea:
So I mean, I'm gonna be completely honest. I also, you know, I live in Arkansas, and sometimes, at a doctor's office, it’s not what's actually wrong with you. So I was also given ADHD medication, I do not have ADHD. I just told a doctor I did and he said, Okay, cool. And he gave me a prescription, a very high prescription for Adderall. So I was literally abusing Adderall to keep my appetite away. And, you know, I did it all the time. And she knew about it. And I look back on pictures of myself at that time, and I just looked terrible, like I look sad and just blah, like washed out. And I just never realized the things I was doing, because they were so praised and so admired in high school and by my parents and in college, it didn't really matter because everybody was just doing their own thing that I never realized it. And then when she pointed it out to me, I was like I was super angry at her number one because I was like, how dare you? How dare you try to take something away from me that I've been working on since I was 13, or 12, you know? And then I went to see a therapist. I was very hesitant. I had seen multiple therapists, and I never even talked about that, because I didn't see it as a problem. And when she told me it was a problem, I started speaking to a therapist who specialized in that. She had me take some, some actual, what's the word when they give you a quiz, you know, to diagnose you?
Katelyn:
Assessment?
Chelsea:
Yes. So I was assessed, and she pulled me back in, because the reason I even saw her was because I had to go see someone to get approval for the surgery. Her name is Leslie, and she was like, I would like to continue seeing you if you don't mind, you tested yes to multiple eating disorders, and I don't want to recommend you for the surgery. And I would like you to continue seeing me. I said, okay. I was angry at her for telling me I couldn't do it, but she was so calming and so nice, and so accepting that I said, Okay. I saw her for about a year until she had to move away, her husband got a new job. And we both cried in her office, because she was the first therapist that understood it. And she gave me a book called Mindful Eating. And did I read it? No, because I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to do it. But I did understand that I had a problem after talking to her. So when she moved, and it was all over, I didn't go back for a while. And so there was a gap of therapy there. And so then whenever I went to do the weight loss surgery, I had a different therapist, and when I told her about it, she was kind of angry about it, and I dropped her immediately because I was so defensive of this disorder, and wanting to be small. And I also think childhood trauma has a lot to play in the fact that sometimes you might want to be small and easy to take care of, or easy to save. Because I think that was part of it for me, I really wanted to be small enough for someone to care about me and to see me as delicate and someone who needed help. Because I never asked for that help. Because I didn't know how. And so I think that really played a big part for me. But like in between all of those things, like from age 12 up to now, Leslie was a huge deal for me, that therapist changed my life because of those assessments. And it took me a lot to get to where I am now because I continued participating in those behaviors for, you know, years after that. And I do remember when I dated my ex girlfriend- I'm not trying to trigger anybody- but I found pro Ana websites. And I had never done that before. And I became obsessed with that. And then suddenly, having this diagnosis meant that I had something to research and get super interested in. But then it also led me down a rabbit hole of people who were excited about that diagnosis. And then I was like, Oh, I want to be one of those people. And it got worse before it got better. So that's kind of what happened, I kind of went down a spiral after getting the diagnosis. And it didn't get much better until I left that relationship to be honest. And it got worse after the breakup. And then it got better once I started taking care of myself and caring about myself at all, you know?
Katelyn:
Yeah, well, it sounds like you're having a really normal experience- it usually gets worse before it gets better. And the human process of just spiraling versus a linear line to our relationships with ourselves, which we're kind of taught in this culture, which doesn't really exist. So it sounds like you're being a human being. And finally, just getting to a place where you're able to acknowledge that for yourself, but damn, it's uncomfortable. I know that from my own personal experience as well, too.
Chelsea:
Yeah, it is super uncomfortable. And there's like, so many parts that people don't talk about, of the nonlinear recovery. Which is like, oh, what, what did you do for three years, I smoked cigarettes for lunch every year for three years. You know, like, I didn't eat all day. So I could drink all night, every Friday. Like there are these little secrets that people participate in. And they don't want people to know because they're shameful to them. And they're still shameful to me to think about. And I used to Google, how do people get better? Because no one ever explains it. They just say it happened. And I don't know how it happened. And it took a long time. And it's because there isn't an answer for that. It's different for every single person and I could not figure that out for the longest time. And now I know that it's not supposed to be linear. And that it's fine to go up down up down all the time, it's one step forward, and like 10 steps back every time, but it's still moving in the right direction and moving the needle. I think that the number one answer to that question of how do I recover is remove the shame from it, take the shame out, because that is the most toxic part of the entire disorder. And the entire recovery period is shame. And I think that is why this year, even my social media looks different than it ever has. Because I did not like to show my body, I did not like to show any part of me, except my face. And I would Face Tune the hell out of all of it and use filters. And suddenly, this year, I sat down with my husband, that's what happened. And I said, I'm tired of lying to people, I am tired of hiding my body. I'm tired of feeling like there's this condition of my body that if you see it, you might not like me, cause like, I don't really give a shit anymore if they like me or not, I'm trying to like me too. And I can't like me if I'm ashamed of every part of my freaking life, and my body and myself. And I was like, I'm just, I'm tired of it. And I think that's what stops people from being successful is because they're trying to hide parts of it. And I was like, I'm not going to hide any more of it. So then, I will never forget- I posted a video of myself on Tik Tok. And I showed my body down to my belt buckle area. And my caption was like, please don't be mean to me, I never showed this much of my body, only my face. And I only had one comment that was like, I didn't know your plus size. And I was just like, oh, okay, so I just kept going. And then it became this movement, this, like, this fat manifesto of like, I can just be myself and if you don't like it, fuck off. And that's kind of what changed for me this year- that I just decided that there were no more secrets. And there was no more shame. I didn't tell anyone I had weight loss surgery, not one person except my husband and my family. Because I was so ashamed and afraid of judgment, I was so afraid that everyone was gonna be like, Oh, this girl who struggled, now she's gotten the surgery- the easy way out. And I just, I heard it all. And I went over it in my head over and over. And finally I decided that I don't have time anymore to care. I'm just going to live my damn life. And that's kind of what is my number one step to recovery, to be honest, is just removing that shame. And in learning that, it's an act of rebellion at this point. I'm living out of spite by this at this point of diet culture, like, I'm tired of it. I can only take so much of that abuse from diet culture- absolutely not. Never again.
Katelyn:
Yeah, I mean, you are living your life in this- you know what's coming up for me here is like, this is self care. Fuck the bubble bath, massage self-care culture that we are being taught right now. This is radical self-care. You taking care of yourself in this bold, courageous way, dismantling shame, and just choosing to live your life authentically. Stepping into your worthiness, stepping into your value, because you exist as a human being in this world. And you don't owe anybody anything. You are worthy because you exist. And you deserve to take up space. That is self care in my opinion.
Chelsea:
I completely agree with that. And I don't want to like harp on social media, but like I downloaded Tick Tock during quarantine like everyone else. And it's like a completely different person looking at what videos I made a year ago versus now. And the reason for that is to be totally honest. I saw someone hiking. Her name was Ashley, and she was hiking and she had a bigger body. And she did not seem to give a damn. She instructs whitewater rafting. She instructs body positive hikes, and she is this force to be reckoned with. And I became obsessed with her. I started watching her every video she ever made- everything she did I was obsessed with. And then I thought, well, why the hell can I do that? If she can do it, I can do it. And so then I started doing it. And and then it exploded and people were like, seeing you do it means I can do it. And I was like that's exactly what happened to me. And then I realized that it was powerful- It wasn't just it wasn't just self care, it was like feeling. It was kind of like how I felt the first time I heard Alanis Morissette in the 90s- like I felt like I could punch through a windshield full of like strength and like divine feminine energy and power. And suddenly I realized, this is the same thing.
Katelyn:
Oh, I so relate to that. I love that you used that analogy. Absolutely, with everything in my body I understand what you mean by that.
Chelsea:
It's almost like a riot girl type of feeling of like, Why the hell have I let cis straight white men dictate my pleasure and my body and and how I view myself, and sell me these fucking diet pills and Weight Watchers that I've done six separate times. Like, for what? Why are you trying to shrink me into something that's palatable? And I could give a fuck if you like me or not.
Katelyn:
Well, I’ve got an answer if you're looking for one- it's because your power is taken away when you're focused on that. And you can't show up as powerfully, politically or socially or in your community. And, it's just a really screwed up way to keep us small as women and just as individuals in society. There's like a system behind it. It's crazy.
Chelsea:
Yes, it's all dismantling the patriarchy because I'm done. I've never been so done with anything in my life. Like, there have been times where like, I'm just like I don't ever want to eat that again, or I never wanted to be like that again. And then you go back to that person or you eat that same thing. Even though you're lactose intolerant, you don't learn your lesson. It took me 20 years of learning this lesson, that diet culture can go rot in hell, because it's not serving me in any form or fashion. And when I look back on the times when I was super entrenched in this eating disorder, and this restriction, and this diet, culture, garbage, I was the saddest I've ever been, and the worst decisions I've ever made for myself, like, the most I've ever hated myself. And was smaller back then? Yes. Did I lose weight from weight loss surgery? Yes. You know, there are things that I feel are positive that happened to me because of it. And sometimes I literally lay in bed at night and think, How can that be possible? I'm so against this yet, I would still do it again. And I feel like I'm in a conundrum sometimes, because I feel like I'm going against my own beliefs. But at the same time, I think that what’s truly changed is my self worth. And it's not from weight loss. It's from seeing other people be badass in bigger bodies. And knowing that, if I feel like that about them, then I could feel like that about me. Also, it was like, I curated my feeds to be completely body positive, Intuitive Eating boss bitches. And it changed how I viewed myself because I saw them as amazing. And then I was like, why am I not amazing too? Why can't I feel like that? And it's like, oh, you totally can. And the only thing now that sucks that I struggled with other than I'm still not fully recovered. And like we talked about earlier, I don't think that's a word that should be in my vocabulary, because I'm in recovery, it's forever going to be changing every day. But like, I still deal with so many hate comments. And you know, where it all started, because I built this community online of women who felt like me and who were empowered by seeing my body. And then Columbia Sportswear saw my Tik Tok, and they messaged me that they're working to be more size inclusive, they want more representation, and asked me if they could sponsor me and I said, Sure, let's work together. I would love to help do that together. And then when they pushed the video out, it got on to a different demographic than I'm used to. And suddenly, my comments were full of men in their 50s telling me that I am disgusting. And then I also started getting upset about that for about a week, it got me really upset. And then I realized, I don't care about their opinion at all. My friend Shelby tells me all the time, do not take criticism from someone you would not take advice from. And I realized I don't care about their advice at all. If you can't even spell your insult correctly, don't even think I give a shit about that opinion. I do not. You're not the one hiking out there with me. I am. I'm the one in this body, moving joyfully, and enjoying my life for the first time that I deserve to enjoy and my body that I deserve to enjoy. I no longer care about their opinion. Even those hate comments at this point. I just delete because I don't want someone else to see it and feel bad because they might not be where I'm at mentally.
Katelyn:
Yeah, that sounds like a really safe boundary that you're setting for yourself and your community.
Chelsea:
That's kind of my goal, I just, I want it to be a safe space. I don't allow any fat phobic bullshit to come through my radar. Unless it's just too much for me to handle and then I might have to go back and fix it. But I just try really hard to keep it a safe place for myself and for and for my community. I just think it is like what you said- it's radical. It’s a radical act of self love and self care. I never in my life have ever enjoyed exercise, not that I didn't like moving my body. I liked dancing. I like gymnastics, things like that- like ballet. But even then those things were rooted in trying to become smaller my whole life. And I finally decided this year that I'm not moving my body to be smaller, I'm moving my body because I can and because it feels good. And I also noticed that the more I moved my body, especially in nature, I would come home after every hike and sob and I could not figure out what was going on. Because I wasn't sad. I was like, on cloud nine. And then I would have this huge meltdown. I'm just sobbing. And then I started following people on the internet who were explaining those things. And it was like, Oh, you have a lot of trauma stored in your body, and moving that trauma out of your body, you don't even know you're doing it until you start having a breakdown afterwards. Like, I started doing yoga, and then I would cry and certain deep hip positions. And I was like, why am I crying? I'm not sad. So then I started keeping a diary next to my yoga mat and writing down the feelings I was feeling when I started having those cry sessions out of nowhere, and for hiking, and they're always there- from 20 years ago, feelings 20 years ago popping up from this traumatic life I lived. I think that's such a big factor, and why I move my body is to get this stored trauma out of me. To be happy. To be safe. And I only started hiking six months ago in February. And it happened the first three months. And I remember, well, I haven't hiked in about two weeks, because it's so hot here, and I can tell my mental health has gotten worse. I am not coming from a high vibrational space, these last two weeks, because I have all this stagnant pent up energy in my body. And I was having some knee pain. So I didn't even get to use my inside little bike. And I just feel like crap. And not in the same way. I used to feel like crap when I didn't work out- there's no guilt involved. I'm not sitting here like, oh, Chelsea, you're gonna gain a lot of weight if you don't go hiking today. It was like that in the beginning. I can't lie. Shelby would keep me in check. Because I would want to go every single day, like five miles a day. And she was like, No, we're doing this for fun. We're not doing this so that you can become exercise bulimic. And I was like, you're right, you're right. So it took a little bit of calibrating, to figure out a good happy medium for me to move my body joyfully, to get trauma out of my body, and to just feel happy outside versus pushing it too far doing it for the wrong reason. You know, and I'm not I'm not gonna lie, last year, there have been quite a few relapses, but they don't last very long. It's like when I first started hiking, I felt very pressured to do it every day and to get this perfect body. And I had to let go of that. And now, like last night, I lifted weights for the first time in a long time. And I thought, am I doing something bad for myself? Is this coming from the right place? And I talked to my husband about it. And I was like, Look, I'm doing this because after weight loss surgery, I lost a lot of body muscle, I was a very strong person before that. And now I am not strong anymore. And I can't sleep because all my back muscles went away, I lost 60% of my muscle. And it's kind of painful to sleep whenever you don't have any muscle to hold your body up. And so now I'm working on muscle to get rid of chronic pain from weight loss surgery. And to be better at hiking. It has nothing to do with the number on that scale, or what I look like. It's because I want to be able to hike as long as I want, anywhere I want to go and feel capable in my own body and to feel like I could just beat the hell out of anyone who ever needed it. Not like I'm going to go out and fight someone. But I just want to feel capable. Like if I need to climb a tree if I need to. If something has blocked the trail, I want to know that I can pick it up and move it so that I don't have to worry. And I just want to feel like a strong badass bitch. And it has nothing to do with weight loss, which is such a refreshing, different place to be in than I was ever in before. It's not about shrinking yourself anymore, you know?
Katelyn:
Yeah. And that's so clear in your story- in the journey that you're describing, it sounds like you've built this deep sense of resilience for yourself that is just continuing to build and build and build as you go through your own process with all of this. How is your relationship with your parents these days? Has that shifted at all? Are you still in communication? What does it look like?
Chelsea:
Well, that's a tricky subject. They live in another city than me. I know, they're not healthy for me. I know that when I do go to their house, or when I see them, it triggers so much and I have so much fear. So, I have only seen my dad once in the last year, maybe twice. And both times, I spent so much time body checking and looking for the perfect outfit before I saw him. Because I wanted him to look at me and think she looks small. She looks like she's done a good job in his eyes of shrinking myself. Even though I feel like this rebellious badass, when I'm not around them, it feels like it almost goes away when I am. And it's more my dad than my mom. Because my mom, we have different issues. But my mother- the last time I saw her, we actually went swimming together, which I thought I was gonna throw up and die imagining doing that. And she was like, come to the public pool with me, let's go swimming. And I was like, I'd rather eat dirt. No offense, like, that sounds terrible in every way, form and fashion. I don't want my body on display in a public pool that I haven't done in probably a decade. I don't want my mother to look at my body and judge me. And I was like, having a small panic attack about it. And then I decided this is just stupid. So I sent her a text and I said, Yes, I'll go swimming with you. But I'm going to wear whatever I feel comfortable in, and that's a bikini. And I'm not going to feel weird about it. And I don't want to have to talk about my body, I just want to have a good time. And I said, I'm a little nervous about what you might say or that other people might stare at me because I have a lot of loose skin. And my mom shocked the hell out of me- her response was, screw them. You and I will have a great time. And who cares what your body looks like? And I was like, Who are you? Have you had a lobotomy? So I show up nervous. And I take off my cover up. And I get in the pool. And she didn't say a word about it. She just took lots of pictures of me and said I looked like Audrey Hepburn with my hair up. And then it was time to get out of the pool to have a snack and put sunscreen on. And instead of making it weird because I was ready for her to make it weird, she just said, Do you want to get out at the same time so that you're more comfortable and not alone? Which is like, I don't know if it's because she has a therapist now, but she spoke to me in such a safe space language that I was like, Okay, sure. And I think that our relationship could be healed more than my father's could, because there's a lot more hurt there even though he never ever tried to hurt me. It still did. I've tried to talk to them about it many times, and it's never met with understanding. It's mostly just like, why would you make us feel like that? Why would you say that to us? So it's kind of to the point that I understand now that we are not ever going to be on a level of understanding. But we can be at a level of mutual- don't bring it up and just try to move forward. And that's kind of where we're at now. I don't know if they even know that I think they think everything is great and fine and perfect. They don't have a clue the amount of trauma and bad behavior that went into all of this for the past 20 years, because I kept a lot of it a secret from them because I didn't feel like I could trust them because they're the ones who got me into it. So we have an okay relationship. I took about a year away from everyone during quarantine obviously. So that actually helped me heal quite a bit because. I did tell my dad last year that I could not heal in the same place I got sick. And I don't think he understood what I was talking about. But I did say it and I told him I needed time. And he gave it to me. I'm not sure where we're ever going to go from here other than just ignoring it again. Because I don't think they understand it. And I don't think I have the mental and emotional bandwidth to try to explain it. I talk about my husband being trans on the internet, and people want me to give them an entire class education about it, and I'm like, I'm not here to educate you. I'm here to show my experience. And I think that's something people need to understand is that you people don't owe you their education and experience, they don't owe that to you. I'm not here to be my parents therapist and explain to them what all I went through at this point, I've gotten too far. I think to do that, it would cost me more emotional distress if I did. So now, we're just kind of holding each other at a little bit of an arm's distance. And I keep my boundaries very tight. And I think that's very essential to me healing.
Katelyn:
Yeah, thank you for sharing all that. I love that you just brought up the responsibility piece of all of this. And, you know, in eating disorders, we tend to take on so many things as our personal responsibility. At least I know I did. And I know this is true for a lot of people who I've worked with plus the stories I’ve heard in the past. And a big part of the healing process is letting go of that self imposed responsibility and creating boundaries- establishing really healthy communication. And this is where shame gets to die. Because when you're speaking your truth, shame doesn't stand a chance. And so that story of you in the pool with your mom and the way that you showed up for yourself so that you could have that experience with your mom, the communication, the boundary setting, like that whole exercise that you went through before you actually got to the pool- I'm so grateful that you really broke that down and painted such a clear picture of that whole chapter in your story, because that's a tool. I think for this community that is a clear practice and it comes with time. It's not overnight. But that clear communication, acknowledging how I'm feeling right now communicating how you're feeling, talking about what you need from your mom. Because just like you said, that fear and that shame, it diminishes when we show up more vulnerably.
Chelsea:
Yeah, it's so funny to hear you say all of that to me, because until you said it, sometimes I need someone else to point it out to me, I think. And I was just thinking, Oh, I just rambled about my mother for so long. You're like, no, that's actually really important that you set this boundary. And, and I know that, but I don't know it until someone says it. And I think that's really important. So like, my husband's mom called us a couple nights ago. And she was telling me how she's proud of me for this body journey I've been on and how I'm inspiring her to do things that are fun for her like racquetball instead of trying to go to punish herself at the gym. And it was an aha moment. And I almost cried while she was on the phone. Because I realized that I'm doing so much of this by myself just with my husband or just with my best friend. It's not like I have my parents patting me on the back or someone telling me that's what you did- that's a boundary- good job, or whatever. It's just what I'm doing. And then when someone points it out, I'm like, Oh, that is a boundary. I did it. Good job, you know? It's so weird sometimes- I think that's another part of a person who has an eating disorder history- is that you're so hard on yourself all the time, that you don't even look at your successes. You don't look at the things you're doing every day. That could be considered radical self care, or a good therapy day where it's like high five, you did that- you did the hard thing. That is something I need to do better at, I need to be better at congratulating myself on the things that to me seem like oh, well, that's what you should have been doing the whole time.
Katelyn:
Well, you know, what's interesting, Chelsea is just drawing from some parallels in your story, which I think are really cool- I know you've mentioned perfectionism in your story, so I feel like this is something that we can talk about- but this is such a fascinating part of perfectionism. How the parallel of you normalizing all of the eating disorder behaviors, and not getting curious about how you were moving through that until someone actually acknowledged it for you from an external point of view. And then sitting with that, and just avoiding the confrontation for yourself around, possibly seeing if this is helping or hurting you, and the parallel between some of the healthy coping tools like the boundary setting and the communication and acknowledging the feelings and kind of avoiding that because we're afraid if it's right or wrong, or getting graded or being imperfect in any way. It's just so interesting how that perfection shows up from a healthy and an unhealthy standpoint. But it's a part of the process, just like you said- it's a part of just that practice of self-acknowledgement and taking a step back and acknowledging versus avoiding the things that we're doing. You know, whether it's healthy or not, and, and moving forward, and that dismantles perfectionism as well, too. I think everything that you're saying is really normal, like you're a human being going through this on your own journey. And it takes a lot of practice. And I'm just totally inspired and in awe of how your journey has built step by step by step by step which has created this amazing opportunity for you to share with the world now.
Chelsea:
Well, thank you. And I think that imposter syndrome, or anything like that feeling like you aren't doing something the right way is just, it's kind of the backbone of this disorder sometimes. Because you have to follow all these rules, and in the eating disorder world, there's so many rules. And so like, trying to find new rules to follow, because my body craves that, like I'm craving those things like, well, if I can't do that anymore, to feel safe, because we all know the rules, we follow an eating disorder world or to feel safe somewhere deep down. And it's like, what I struggled with so hard, and I'm still struggling with right now, like this moment, is, it's such it became a safe place for me to exist before I ever knew it was an issue. I didn't know that that wasn't okay. I didn't know that that was a bad thing until someone pointed it out to me in my late 20s. So like, because I grew up being praised and patted on the back for the things I was doing. Like you're such a good child or such a good daughter, you're doing so good. You're so disciplined. And you know, and it's just like, once those things are gone, you feel lost. That's what I struggle with. Still, it's like, those things are comforting to me, those bad behaviors are comforting. And so I didn't know what to do. And I still don't sometimes, because hiking has helped me replace those things. But at the same time, when I'm not hiking, or I'm not doing whatever good behavior, I still miss those things- they helped me cope, they helped me feel safe. And I think that people need to know that it's normal to miss your eating disorder. It's normal to feel safe there. It's normal to feel like that's your friend. Because I still do. And I'm, I'm still having to say no to it every day, because those things are things that I'm like, Hmm, I missed that too. I still wish I could do that. I think that's normal. And that's part of recovery. And you know, I used to be so defensive about it. I didn't want people to take it away from me. And I didn't tell anyone about it except my husband, until I told my best friend Shelby. And I didn't even tell her until a couple months ago. And I immediately came home and cried. And Hayden was like, What are you upset about? She knows she's happy, and she's gonna hear she's here to help you. He's like, she doesn't judge you. And I said, I’m not worried about being judged. I'm worried that now that another person knows that secret is no longer something I can lie about to her. I can't tell her I had breakfast because she's gonna say Did you really? And then I'm gonna be like, well, damn, you know, like, and he was like, he doesn't really understand it. Sometimes. No one understands that it must I've done. And it's just a big secret you have to keep all the time. And then, the more people you tell, the more accountable you have to be. And then it feels like that safety, that secret eating disorder safety world has been pulled out from under my feet. And it makes me angry. It makes me full of rage because I want to protect it because it felt like it was mine. It was secret and safe. And now it's not mine because I'm telling people- I'm telling the world about it. And so you can't continue those behaviors when you tell the people closest to you. Because you don't want to be a liar. And you don't want to hurt them. And so like I think that's what I'm struggling with the most is like it's not the vulnerability of telling the internet- I can lie to the internet if I want to. I can't lie to the people I love who know about it, which makes me so fucking angry. It made me think I was gonna get divorced. It made me think I was gonna dump my best friend because the minute they both knew, my eating disorder voice was like, well get rid of them. And I was like, No, I don't want to. But I did, because I wanted to continue the behavior in the safety of my own solitude. And I think that I pushed so many people away. And I didn't tell anyone for the longest time because I wasn't ready to give it up. I'm still not all the way ready. But telling people is an act of self care. It really is. It's radical self care. It's saying I'm going to be honest with you, I'm struggling, I still want to do these behaviors. And if I hadn't told you about it, I was just gonna do it anyway. But now I can't. Because I have to tell you, and you will know, it's not that I'm trauma dumping on someone. It's just like, Hey, I can't lie to you anymore. And that's a big deal to let in that small circle of people. I can't lie about food stuff or working out stuff, too. And it helps your recovery, even though it's so damn uncomfortable.
Katelyn:
Yeah, it's so good. Everything that you share, it's just so powerful. And it is you showing up for yourself. Just like we've been saying- it's the theme of this message. And it is uncomfortable. A part of being human- being fully expressed and authentic, is being able to just move through discomfort and acknowledge, I become more human when I can embrace the discomfort and know that it doesn't exist for every single part of my day- I get to flow through it, and then flow through the times that feel really comfortable as well, too. It's like a wave, you know. And really, rather than avoiding it, just acknowledging this is going to come up and I can do hard things and I can move through it. And leaning on your support system and using your tools in your toolkit and continuing to add things in. It sounds like all of the things that you're that you're really doing right now are so nourishing.
Chelsea:
And I am just trying to do that. I'm trying to not be like, now here are the things I need to fix. I'm already ready to tell you my whole list of everything- that's the reason why I'm not perfect, because even you telling me Oh, you're doing nourishing things. I'm like, Yeah, well, here are all the bad things I'm doing. Let me make sure you know, because I want to make sure that I'm not portraying this false sense of wellness. I weighed myself this morning. I told myself not to and I did it anyway. I weighed myself against my better judgment against my therapist's wishes. I did it anyway. And I gained two pounds from yesterday. You know, and that a year ago, would have sent me into 100% restriction and working out and a spiral. And today, there was about a two minute sadness. And then I had breakfast, and I had lunch and I had a snack today. And I didn't work out because I'm busy today. And, I also told myself, what would the people on your Instagram feed tell you about this because like, that's where I get my good feeling behavior. And I thought, I didn't gain two pounds. I felt my body yesterday, and I had a lot of salt and a lot of carbs because that's what my hormones wanted. And I'm also about to start my period. And even if I did gain two pounds, who gives a shit? I know it's not real weight. Because that's impossible to do in a day. It's impossible. But I had to logic my way out of it. And then I had to tell myself, you have a long day ahead of you a lot of work to do and you're going to feel your body again today, even though you feel like you shouldn't because of this stupid ass scale. That means nothing. And everyone in my comments are like, get rid of the scale, get rid of it, just throw it away. And I have to tell them I'm not ready yet. Yeah, it's the last thing I have to let go of. And it's because it's safe to me because in my brain I've had these medical procedures I need to know. No, I don't. But I need to do that. It's the last thing I have you have left and when it's gone, I think it'll be gone forever. But I don't even get weighed at the doctor's office. The big moment this year for me other than like all of the things we've just talked about, but like the therapy breakthrough moment, and I'm just texting a therapist, someone even seeing someone in person right now, which is new to me. She told me well, you know you're struggling with weighing yourself. So how long has it been? And I said I do it every day. And she said, Well, how about every two days, and I felt like my jaw was going to hit the floor. Because I was like, wait, that's the thing? I can still weigh myself? A therapist is telling me that I can still do it. And she said, Yeah, I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to help you figure out how to get how to do it less. And I was like, Oh, my brain is very black and white. It's who I am as a person. And it was to me all or nothing. You either don't weigh yourself, or you do every day, and you can't just pick once a month, once a week. And she was like, yeah, how about instead of doing it on Monday, do it on Tuesday next week? And I was like, that's progress. She's like, yeah, of course, that's progress. And I was like, because to me, if I'm not doing it perfectly the first time, I might as well not do it at all, which is what got me in this whole mess in the first place. And, and so like learning, just just having someone tell me things that seems super obvious. Like, that's still progress. You don't have to be perfect. Iit just blew my mind. And I thought, I'm 35 and I didn't know that.I needed someone to tell me.
Katelyn:
You're, you're on your own journey- we're all on our own journey. And this is why I just really believe in spaces like this where we can share our stories vulnerably because we're all going through our own stuff, you know. I have no doubt that your therapist is going through her own stuff, you know. And so it's the bar that we set for ourselves. And it's interesting, you mentioned that you don't want to paint this false picture of wellness. What is wellness, you know? I certainly know what wellness is from, like an Instagram standpoint, and I think it's complete bullshit. But it sounds like you are doing wellness- like you getting support, you are actually just taking the next step in your day and your journey, having a human experience, taking care of yourself, even if that means stepping on the scale, because that's safer than doing something else in your day. That is wellness in my opinion. And I'm just hearing a lot of really great things that you're saying that I think are going to inspire other people. And I'm just celebrating your humaneness and really glad that we're in this space together.
Chelsea:
Thank you. I think I'm learning so much- I feel like I'm the one talking the most during this time, but it's like just having someone bounce back and say, no that's humaneness, you are doing wellness. And to me, I'm just so hard on myself all the time, which I think is the eating disorder brain, it's so hard to break free from some of those things just like you were saying, you know, the bar is so high. And it's like, my brain is telling me fuck that bar, get rid of it, throw it in the trash, it's garbage, who cares? Everyone's bar is different. And everyone's vision of wellness for themselves is going to be different than someone else's. I think it's just been such a difficult journey, a difficult place to be in where you have to be perfect all the damn time. But it's still gonna linger. And, I’m just learning that progress is better than perfection. That harm reduction is better than being perfect. You know, like, my huge secret shame right now that I don't tell anyone except my husband, and my best friend is that I started smoking during the pandemic. And I was like, What a stupid thing to do. That's so stupid. It's literally a lung disease. Like, why? How can you be this dumb? and Shelby, my best friend has been so nice to me about it. She's like, Chelsea, you're going through the biggest recovery of your life. You're changing so much like your brain you're becoming so much happier and more positive. She was like, shit happens. Shit happens and if smoking one cigarette a day helps you not have the relapse right now, because you're literally trying to harm reduction over perfection. And I was like, you're right, you're right. But I'm so hard on myself that it just makes me hate myself. Like I'm so ashamed. And she was like, but that's what that's what you did to survive back in the day. And if that comes back up for you to survive now, that's better than starving yourself all day. And I was like, you're right. But I can't see it like that until someone tells me that and then it just feels like such a failure to me. Like I'm failing at everything. If I fail, if I'm not doing it perfectly. Like, there are days that I still wake up and I write down my schedule by the every five minutes and I try to follow it which is something I used to do and I was deep deepen in eating disorders, because I had to plan everything out, including my food and, and water and what time I would do everything to make my life perfect. And so there are still things that pop up, like the scheduling or the cigarettes. And when they, when they fall off, I'll be happy because that's one more step towards less restriction. And, and, you know, I just feel like if I'm going to be honest, I'm going to be totally honest, like I'm, there are things I'm not proud of. And there are things that I need to be more proud of, because that harm reduction is better than being perfect. And yes, I would rather fuel my body with convenience foods, which is another thing I did this week. I went and filled my fridge with convenience foods, because I was like, I don't feel like cooking. And if convenience foods are going to put food in my body, that I'm buying them and I'm going to eat them without guilt. Because it's better than not eating all day. Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. I'm trying to do whatever's better and less harmful is what I'm going for.
Katelyn:
Yes, I think that's just such a gentle and nourishing way to approach healing, and also just living, you know. It's not even about healing, because what does that even mean? Just, you know, without going off in a whole new direction. but like, what does that mean, when you're fully recovered, you know? What is supposed to happen and whatnot? It's just living. And it's really taking care of yourself through the next step. I mean, everything that you're saying is super important. And I also think it's really normal, especially in the pandemic- you know, eating disorders, coping behaviors. Everyone was going through something and also feeling really confused at the same time, because the pandemic just kind of became our new normal, too. And we forgot that most of the time.
Chelsea:
Oh, yeah, there's a lot going on. And there's a reason why I'm feeling this way that's outside of my home environment. And it's important to remember, but yeah, the world is experiencing this collective trauma from the pandemic. And I think that the people who love me who are around me the most, my best friend, my husband, are so great at telling me things like, be less hard on yourself. You're pretending like everyone else is in a pandemic, and you're not, you're you're just supposed to be perfect all the time. And that's impossible. And I forget that. And I think what you were saying about healing versus living- living is the goal, you're completely right. I just want to be happy and live my damn life. Because I feel like I didn't do it for so long. I was too busy living this life, I wanted to be perfect. And I was, it was miserable. I've been miserable since I was 12. And I finally came to terms with that. And I told Shelby last month, I was like, you know, I have had more genuine laughter and smiles on my face in the last six months than I have had in the last 20 years. I truly do feel like I could be happy. And I thought I was happy. I thought I was okay. Until it came back. You know, until I realized I've been sad for a long time. I've been shrinking myself, limiting myself living in this place of scarcity for so long. That I didn't know what it felt like to feel that joy again until I felt it. And it was almost embarrassing to feel it. I was like, Oh, what is this? It's like losing your virginity and you're like, Oh, this is awkward. I don't know what to do. I was so uncomfortable with joy, that I didn't allow myself to feel it because I was in such a dark place. Even though I didn't know I was because I was seemingly functioning and successful and had jobs and friends and you know, paid my car payment. And then, and then I went hiking and started screaming in the forest. And I'm working out this trauma, and swimming and natural bodies of water completely naked just to feel alive. And suddenly I'm laughing like I haven't laughed since I was a kid. And like to me, that is the damn goal.
Katelyn:
Oh, I love it. Yeah, fun, pleasure, satisfaction. And also, just acknowledging where the bar that we set for ourselves around happiness is because I think that's one of the reasons why we avoid giving ourselves permission to be happy, because in the perfectionistic mind, we think if I choose to be happy, that means I have to be happy all the time. And when I'm not happy I'm failing. In reality, happiness is just a state of being that ebbs and flows just like grief, just like anger just like sadness or loneliness or any of these things. The moral hierarchy around joy and happiness is something that we need to assess deeply on an individual and a cultural collective level, in my opinion. Because when we can start giving ourselves permission to find moments of happiness versus entire days or entire weeks or entire months, and let that add up naturally, I think that's the best case for sustainability around bliss. And that joy that we can feel.
Chelsea:
I agree, because there's no way to measure happiness. Yeah, like, I'm happy every day of my life. No, I'm not. I'm not even happy all day for that one day that I'm happy. Like, so many of our hikes consist of us straight up bitching and moaning for the first two hours of it about everything in our lives, our families, whatever it is, we just have this huge bitch fest. And then by the end of it, we are on cloud nine,full of endorphins giggling like a bunch of fools. And in screaming about how amazing we both are. It's like, yeah, letting it out.
Katelyn:
Yeah- when you can let out those things that you want to say and the feelings and just express yourself, it opens you up to receive more happiness, in my opinion, too, because it's like, our plate is too full. Love, I could keep talking to you for hours and hours and hours. I feel like if I asked you another question, we might be on this podcast for another three hours because I just have so many things that I want to keep asking you. So you'll just have to come back on.
Chelsea:
I will gladly come back on. I've literally just missed a meeting and had no idea about it because I was so into this. And I don't even care because they moved it. So it's their fault. Oh, well!
Katelyn:
I'm so deeply appreciative of you and your time, where can everybody find you and get connected with your work and your community and just be in your world?
Chelsea:
I know I'm 35 but mostly I use Tik Tok. And I also share photos every day on Instagram. And those are my two main sources. I don't really use Facebook except to chat with a couple of friends from college. So Tik Tok & Instagram @whatwouldellewoodsdo.
Katelyn:
Oh, I love it.Well, thank you so much, Chelsea, you are just such an inspiration and fabulous human being. Thank you.
Chelsea:
I feel the same way about you. Thank you so much.